Back in 2012, engi was the 2nd character I tried to level up. I think I got traumatized from doing so little dmg and dying so much at levels 10-20. After that, I created a warrior and all the mobs melted easily. I probably was a noob, but I think this might sum up the explanation


No, you're right. Warrior was Anets favorite child (although they switched to guardian now).


I like the class fantasy, hate the implementation. Loved the turrets and their steampunk looks when they game launched. Over time it gravitated towards use all these kits instead. I like Holosmith, although at the end of the day it’s another kit. Lately I’ve been using Scrapper a lot more. I was hyped when HoT launched for Scrapper, but it ended up being basically just clunky mobile wells, and now it’s not that clunky but still basically mobile wells. I wanted little attack robot minions to swarm something.


Yeah, I like engies but I don't like kit swapping.


This it feel so tedious to swap out a lot constantly to use 1 ability then swap back endlessly


i just dont bother swapping, ever.


Same lol. I want to be able to play simple braindead rotations for decent performance. With piano playstyle, engi & ele tbh should do AMAZING dps. Reward skill


I mean, Weaver and Holo do amazing dps, when played correctly... and pHolo isn‘t even hard to play.


lazy power holo is without the grenade kit. you still do good enough damage for most things and the rotatin is simple


pHolo with grenade kit is also pretty simple :)


Now with quickness Scrapper is so much fun and you can really feel the 'bruiser fantasy' - whatever thats supposed to mean. It works very good even in raids. But yeah it took them like 5 years to got to that point. Most ppl just stuck with guard or warrior...


The game needs more customization of your abilities' looks. It seems like a norn engineer should have some shaman totems, an asura should have little triangular guns, etc. I know its based on charr tech but it just looks weird on some characters and the additional subclasses just complicate it further.


The Holo spe feel more Asuran than Charr to me tbh


I never got into engi simply because most (if not all) of the meta builds rely on using kits. Most of the time that means you just equip a ki and spam one ability, the other 4 being trash; or you have a build that has like a million things to press. Ie. you either have a really boring build that looks interesting or an interesting build that is way too intense to play well compared to most other builds (I remember a core condi engi that was something like a 50 step rotation).


>I remember a core condi engi that was something like a 50 step rotation That ended with "improvise" no less.


This is also because the meta is fucking garbage for engineer. Or at least the top meta. You don't need grenade kit to make Holosmith work for instance. Hell, there is a way you can build Holo that has TWO actions per minute and can bench 25k DPS. It's a REALLY easy elite spec that people make needlessly complicated. I've taken my kitless build into raids before, hell even a couple CMs. There are very few fights that I'd bring Grenade kit for and that's more due to needing the option to swap to range. (Whisper of Jormag, Dhuum, Dhuum CM)


Even worse than having to switch to a kit to press just one ability and switch away was that the one ability on elixir gun you'd cast in the rotation also involved swapping off of the kit mid-ability to interrupt the jump it caused so that you could have both damage packets land in the same place and not throw yourself away from your target. Just left me feeling like the whole class was crap, and only semi-viable due to exploiting a buggy piano.


New player here so question might be dumb, but isn't that almost the same complexity other classes have with weapon swaps, Combos or different forms?


engis cooldowns are almost all hidden, especially condi engi makes use of at least 5 different weapon sets at any one time, none of which you see the cooldowns for, you have to not just understand your class you have to *know* it and how it feels and flows in combat, there is a reason why engineer and elementalist are considered the most complex.


Engi main since launch here: For the complex builds Engi's buttons are obtuse in their complexity. The base class has weird flow, and in some cases no flow at all. Scrapper is no different, but holosmith is a bit better. In addition to the kits being kind of wack, base engi has GARBAGE weapon variety for builds. If you want Shield for instance, even as a Scrapper you have to take mh pistol. But pistol is not good in most situations, so now half your weapon skills are dead slots. Not necessarily a problem if your kit has a good 1 spam, but it does feel awful to have dead buttons. A lot of playing engi well, is understanding how to dance around dead buttons, really. And understanding that most of the utility skills are not worth taking ever. Further limiting build diversity. These days i just play wvw, so idk pve meta at all. For wvw scrapper is meta and the build is boring to play, and somehow with every patch gets more boring with the changes. At least in my opinion, engi is also likely the least popular class to the devs. It tends to not get much tlc and gets forgotten. Which is also not super enticing to players veteran enough to see that.


Don't have alot of experience but holosmith feels fun in pve and pvp. The weapon variety is a point but I think that's a thing kits intend to solve. Other classes use many weapons engis use kits. But yeah I also noticed that there are alot of dead buttons when I don't play my main build (sword and shield holo)


The best example I have for the weapon variety is Support Scrapper in WvW. Meta build uses Hammer for the engage capability of Hammer 5, and the synergy of Hammer 2 with gyro fields for extra cleanse. However Shield 5 is actually nuts and is debatable to take even if you didn't take any mainhand weapon. Which coincidentally ends up being the reality, as pistol mainhand for the build in WvW is quite literally three dead buttons. The 1 skill does no damage for support builds, and the build already has a ranged projectile from Egun if for some reason it's necessary to poke something for no damage. The 2 skill poisons, but not nearly as effectively as Purge Gyro's toolbelt. The 3 skill shares one core problem with the 1&2 skills in that it's a projectile, which means it will just fizzle in WvW anyway, while also sharing the 1 skill's issue of still dealing no damage from the build being support based. No build in GW2 should ever have a situation where you could literally not equip a mainhand weapon and lose out on nothing as one option, vs being pinned to a 2h weapon because there's no mainhand to pair to a viable offhand weapon as the alternative option. ​ Holo WvW I've tended to recommend Rifle, as it kind of meshes well into how kits work. Flamethrower 1 spam in WvW now that Resistance is a bad joke is very potent. So Rifle 1's impotency doesn't matter at all, allowing for the damage of 3/5 to shine as necessary, and the utility of 4/5 as needed. Gives the spec a lot of versatility in ways which feel like they highlight the strength of what engi is capable of. Though I'm sure PvE/PvP is far different. Shield I'm sure shines brighter in smaller scale engagements like you'd find more commonly in PvP.


For a split second I got excited about the prospects of using mace with the new spec with the shield, then remembered that you'd have to use the elite to even use it. Sad times.


Am i just weird were i just use one build for scrapper engineer and dont swap atall? like I enjoy my scrapper asura even if the damage and survivability is questionable.


I wouldn't say that is weird if you are having fun. But if you do group content, want to preform better in specific situations or game modes, fill roles... its useful. For example when I raid lead - I tend to fill on my engi as Power Quickness, Healer Quickness, or Condi DPS if needed. When I PvP - I can swap builds to play around what my team is missing as well.


The problem is that you can't use one kit and call it a day, like you can with a set of weapons you like. Because every kit does 5 wildly different things, so really you have to mix and match several to get a handful of skills that make sense together.


It’s more that the lack of weapon variety is due to the kits. Similar to Elementalist though not that extreme.


I mained engineer since the game released and got bored and quit after reaching 80, I returned in HoT and my engineer felt piss weak so I got bored and quit again. I've started again now with the upcoming expansion and started a bunch of new characters to try the other classes and I'm finally hooked after all these years 🤣 I've now got 6 level 80s (3 from 80 boosts from buying expansions and 3 from leveling) and the only one I don't enjoy is my engineer. Its gutting since that was absolutely the class I was most interested in. It really didn't do anything with the idea of having gadgets and inventions to play with. It could easily be the most fun class in the game but you instead feel like a bit of a pack rat. The boring look of the turrets doesn't help and I really feel like they're missing a trick by not having Turret Skins.


Idk about the past, but right now should be one of the best times to play engie. Holo is good dps in fractals and raids. Scrapper is good quickness dps or quickness heal in raids. It has uses in wvw, not sure how much still in pvp after nerfs.


I'd say Engi is a bit more complicated because it also relies on mechanics not unique to it's class like combo fields and Finishers, engis can have up to 30 skills available at once, most other classes only have ~15


Throughout the history, the only class with similar level of complexity was only ele. With ele always benefiting from being a very popular class archetype, and engi aestethics suffering from the exact opposite - being more technological/steampunk based, and so the *least* popular in a primarily fantasy-focused setting.


Weapon Swap has a 9 second cooldown, Engineer kits have zero


I do miss the day when in pvp you could abuse the engineer's swap time. Come at me at melee? I'll push you away and range attack. Come at me at ranged? I'll pull or charge you and outdamage your ranged attack. Want to weapon swap to match the territory? I swap faster. Its no longer a thing currently. I think there's too much mobility and hp recovery to make it viable.


Yeah, on paper it looks similar to other classes, but all the skills are different when you do lots of kit swapping. If you do weapon swaps and profession mechanics, that’s only a few extra skills to learn (some of which aren’t always used in the rotation anyways). Kits have tons of extra unique skills, which makes it intimidating. I’m also new, so that’s why Engineer and Elementalist sorta scare me. Sure there’s an order to the skills and a lot of them for other classes, but it’s easier to get to know each ability on its own. There’s just so many different things going on with those classes.


What makes it more difficult is the hidden cooldowns. So most other classes have stuff that replaces their weapons (weapon swapping, shroud, tome etc), swapping to and from these stuff incurs a cooldown, so you dont have to keep track of too many cooldowns as you are not allowed to weapon swap etc infinitely. Whereas engi cant weapon swap but has to juggle kits instead, and you want to enter kits at the right time, so you have to keep track of a lot of cooldowns within the kits - which are hidden as you dont see them when you are not in particular kits.


This is caused by many kits having only 1-2 skills that are worth to add in the rotation an generally no Kit swapping cooldown. For example you often switch into Grenade Kit, use skill 2 and then switch out again. So you had to press 3 buttons to achieve a single step in your rotation. Most other classes do not switch their skills this often as they have cooldowns on weapon, legend, attunement swap etc.


carpal tunnel syndrome


Core weapons are boring and options are limited. Kits are boring and as cookie cutter (and necessary) as banners on Warrior. Fashion options are outfits or butt capes.


Thrown a new take here: not only kits are somewhat complex to play, but for me Engie has, by far, the worst traits in the game. All dps builds are thrown in Explosives and Firearms. Elixirs are nice as pvp option and defense and support. Tools and inventions.... Inventions is useful for one or another trait for support. Tools is basically moot, offers no damage, no support, nothing unique. That, with a lot of uninspired skills too that need rework and barely see any use, makes Engie a very boring class with more limited options than it looks.


Engineer was also the profession that most benefited from the original trait system where you could dip into every trait line or choose traits from lower tiers at higher tiers. I feel like after the trait rework core engi lost a bit of its flavor.


I want to say that warrior was also gutted by this change. Taking fast hands used to be a relatively small investment into one tree that is otherwise not very useful. The old worker warrior build in wvw was never quite as good after the rework.


It also nerfed phantasm mesmer a lot. I stopped playing my main, a mesmer, after the rework.


Core Engi was the most fun imo. The Elite Specializations really took away from the whole "jack of all trades, master of none" utility pile that Core Engi used to be.


I miss some of the cool traits that used to be. Bombs healing allies was hilariously dumb.


Throwable turrets! Loved chucking them up on walls where it was harder for them to be destroyed.


It sums up my experience with Engi. Class is holding up not because of core design, but because some random trait is broken in current patch.


Oh definitely. Hats off to the one week where Mortar Kit could actually do damage and was usable for it's intended purpose. Beyond that only time I've seen it used regularly in WvW was because of a rune which AoE cleansed each time an elite skill was used. Since the rune had no ICD, you could just spam activate/deactivate on mortar kit for quite literally infinite cleanse. Lasted for months unchanged, and only was fixed in the big rune update patch, not because engi received any actual dev attention.


Mortar is still a common pick in WvW though. It has insane range that makes it actually possible to hit and destroy siege that no one else could without their own siege.


You can harass siege with it, and hilariously poke over gates with it, but the damage is not...high. Most of the useful long-ranged options for engi are projectiles as well which is still a modewide mechanics nightmare. You can play it in a siege or for PPT, but in a real fight it drops off in effectiveness very hard very fast vs a more melee oriented engi build imo.


I can't stand using mortar even firing off walls. The attack arc is awkward. It counts as a projectile so it can be reflected. Its not easy to see why you're taking damage because of it. Also, because it's a spam attack it makes you very vulnerable to being pulled off the walls via mesmer. Engi doesn't have many supporting traits to prevent this. Personally i stopped trying.


Idk that flamethrower kits I fun to play with. But hey some people want to watch the world burn.


What's weird is that flamethrower fits power better than condi.


I mean, if you're looking at just damage, sure, but engie has a ton of utility with their trait lines. Tools gets you easy Perma swiftness, a great gadget boost trait (making your rocket boots go from 900 to 1200 range, give you superspeed, while still having two charges), or tons of endurance Regen that stacks with the ton of vigor you'll be getting. Yeah, there are traits that could use work, but to say the entire line is useless just suggests you're not experimenting with your builds at all, which tbh is what I think engie is best at. The complexity is there to give the ability to do a ton of different playstyles, imo. I dunno, if you're focused on "how many viable best in slot raid builds are there" then yeah, it's firearms, explosives, and scrapper/holosmith. But if you're talking about open world or PvP or wvw, then there's a ton of fun to be had with engie.


Static discharge + turrets + rifle was supreme build for tagging events. In fact it continues to be decent these days. Honorable mention to mid range flamethrower for tagging packed enemies at closer range.


I'll have to mess with doing a static discharge x flame thrower build for Halloween farm 👀 didn't even think about using static discharge for tagging!


SD bounces, 1200 range. Ideally you want to pair it with low CD belt skills, like rifle turret, and tagging machine all set!


Typically I do juggernaut scrapper for lab farms cus the superspeed helps me keep up (helps everyone else keep up too tho...). I might try doing a holosmith build with Perma swiftness and static shock, and then grab rifle and projection shield for the low CD tool belt skills, with flamethrower still. I love build craft!


Yea, Tools is largely a mobility line. Auto-stunbreak + perma swiftness + 1,200 range Rocket Boots and some vigour to boot. It's definitely more of a competitive game mode line though.


Yeah def. TBH There's not a single line I don't have in one of the builds I use frequently.


Grenade kit. Engineer spent literally years being "Grenade Kit: The Class", because the other kits were way behind in dps and utility. It's annoying to spam ALL ground targeted actions constantly, not even an auto attack, and the auto target option isn't very functional. The class was extremely strong for a long time in the earlier years, but people didn't want to play it because it required camping out in grenade kit specifically. When HoT came along, Engineer got super gimped by getting Scrapper - an elite spec so weak that it was often better to go without an elite spec at all. When every other class's elite spec was, even if a bit weird, very strong. PoF was a huge improvement for Engineer. Not only did Holosmith finally free Engineer from the Grenade Kit, it's a strong and thematically attractive elite spec. This is loosely the time frame that the other kits were buffed in too. But this long into the game, most people already aren't Engineers one way or another. And as nice as Holo is, I didn't see it really attract people to switch mains as much as dust off old alts (or roll new ones) to play with for a little while before returning to mains. Holo is fun, but it's not doing anything crazy like soloing group content, nor is it an in demand support spec that will keep people playing it until the meta changes (like druid, FB, etc).


Probably the lack of build diversity. Only 4 weapons leave not much room for experiments


Why do people overlook toolkits being weapons, pretty much? My personal issue with engi is the fact that you need to switch between way more than just 2-3 "weapons" if you want to play it efficiently. I prefer simple and brain dead builds in all games that I play and engi is definitely the polar opposite of that.


For a long time toolkits felt weak and overlooked by devs. By the time they got so tuning it was too late. The community already had it's perception on the Engi class. Holosmith shot up it's popularity though. Could be this 3rd elite spec could do the same but we shall see.


Remember when the Mortar elite skill required you to deploy an actual object in the field? It was slow and clunky, rooted you to the spot, and had a minimum range. That's just how bad engineer was in the beginning and believe me I spent like 1,200 hours trying to make engi work for me. Why bother with the dumb concert piano Kit rotation in serious content when you can do more with less effort on literally any other class?


Yeah weren't toolkits more of a novelty at one point like racial skills? Or at least close to it in terms of power


Mortar kit was a joke originally, but all the other kits were fine, though the community was happy to just assume it was terrible, same as they did with necro for years. Some kits were actually pretty OP back then, and not just from the old double-hit projectile grenade glitch (devs probably weren't playing the class much either).


Maybe because it's extremity on either side? Having to switch to 3-4 skill sets to be effective would turn me away as well. When I am on engi I am either parking Flamethrower for mindless stuff, or running kitless quickness scrapper.


I play engineer and I'm a really new player. I have to say I just think it is because everything that's supposed to be cool about core engi visually just looks shit. I'm really happy with the visuals of my current holosmith but for core engi it was: Pewpew gun. Pewpew gun with different bullet color. Barely visible explosions And that turret that just looks a bit... Well not cool


kits are a big part of engineer, and afaik they hide your weapons. that legendary you grinded for (or that gemstore weapon you whipped out your credit card for)? instantly gone.


Can confirm kits hide weapons. Also your holosmith Form hides your weapon.


HUGE turnoff, drove me off engi 9 years ago after I did map completion, haven't played it much since then. Wasnt fun seeing everyone else getting cool weapons and you're stuck with a trenchcoat and a low poly flamethrower (or whatever).


This! Core Engineer is by far the least visually appealing. Legendaries are rendered useless because kits do not mimic the effects of a legendary weapon. So, we are stuck with ugly ass effects made in 2004.


This. The turrets, for example, look absolutely atrocious. They are literally made from pans and cooking pots. Turrets look shabby on humans, unfitting on Sylvari, pathetic for Charr engineers (the same guys who make freaking flame belching tanks and what not), and downright insulting for Asura. Arenanet even has new cool turret models, just the gatling gun from Drizzlewood would be awesome, but no. And their weapon skills look ugly and not cohesive at all.


Totally agree turrets should have had skins or been race specific.


Damn even as a new player you nailed down the faults of engi, well done. Let's hope they fix some things up with our next elite spec.


Thanks. Played alot of mmos and games overall before so I'm good at recognizing what I dislike by now.


You accidentally pointed out another issue with the profession. Instead of really taking care of engi and fixing core, anet throws stuff into elite specs. And if e-specs overperform, core gets nerfed.


My guess is that because of his kits he seems too complicated for casual players and they would rather pick something easier.


The kits are also really boring and hide your weapon skins.


More importantly they haven't kept up with power creep, like at all. Only one that's ever been Truly updated is flamethrower


Pretty much every kit is meta in some kind of game mode. Grenade and bomb kits are meta in pretty much all situations. Mortar/Egun are used in PvP meta builds Flamethrower/Toolkit are used in specific cheese/roam builds


Dunno. Plenty of people asking to nerf grenade kit. And mortar kit with super speed let’s me fire for effect at 1500 range.


Its still a MMO and I cant imagine myself playing ground targetted skills for that long.


If you're lazy, there is the Snap Ground Target to Current Target option. Though that's more for PvE than PvP


It’s not bad with action cam and quick targeting turned on. Basically becomes point and click (or point and press hotkey).


I get it that it’s not for everyone. I swap to mortar with super speed to wear down targets as they get close (applying poison, chill and blind by the time they get into melee range). Then I swap hammer (proccing super speed again) and knock ‘em around while I generate barrier. Ground targeting also lets you tag all the things :) But I mainly WvW and PvP, so I can’t speak to how boring it might be in Open World or raids.


Mortar is pretty useful, as it gives Scrapper some range when necessary.


My guess is that it's a fairly niche class fantasy. It's a mechanic. A tinkerer. You can do that shit in real life. You know what I can't do in real life? Throw fireballs, summon flesh monsters do my bidding, create illusions, and wield a sword the size of my body. Gw2 is more high fantasy than not in my opinion, and it's just the odd man out on the class fantasy aspect.


I guess it also doesn't help that the Engineer class only really makes sense for the Charr and Humans. Both races actually use the sort of tech the profession possesses. Norn and Sylvari, on the other hand, don't make use of any advanced tech. And while the Asura definitely use high technology, theirs is a great deal more advanced than ballistic weapons and steampunk turrets.


Good point.


Still find it strange that turrets don't have different skins for the different races. Oh and while I'm talking skins.. weapon kit skins, anybody?


Id like to see you make a rocket boot that doesn't blow your shins off, or a drone that makes you permanently invisible lol. You're right about the niche class fantasy, but I think "tinkerer" is a niche class in any game. Like in mass effect, iirc the engineer was the least picked class, and that game was fully set in a tech world lol. I also think that there's no problem with engineer being the least picked class. Someone's gotta be at the bottom, and as long as I keep getting my cool tech stuff while being viable then I'm happy.


I'm brand new and my first ever character is a Charr engineer. I have a question though. Am I limited to only using pistols and rifles? I'd like to use a sword as well but all the swords appear to be unavailable to me. I'm level 12 or so if that makes a difference.


When you hit level 80 you'll have the opportunity to unlock the ability to use "elite specializations", which are like sub-classes that give you access to a new weapon, change the way the class plays, and gives you fun new toys to use. The engineer has the "Scrapper", which unlocks the hammer, and the "Holosmith", which unlocks the sword. :) Let me know if you have any questions about the class! As other comments are saying it can be a little daunting, but there are a bunch of really easy to use builds to ease you into it! My favorite is the "Juggernaut Flamethrower" build


Thanks for the tip! I just started playing last night and went with engineer. I'm enjoying the rifles but I'm a sword man at heart, so I'm happy to know I have the option to use one later on. I don't mind having lots of abilities to get to know. My main MMO is SWTOR which has tons of abilities to get to know for every class, so I'm kinda used to it and am willing to learn the engineering mechanics. I liked the thought of being a jack of all trades class that could offer a lot of utility, so I am looking forward to seeing what engineer has to offer as I level!


In my opinion Engineer is the best "jack of all trades" class. They have builds you could use for virtually any situation, and a lot of their more complex builds also have multiple sources of utility within them so you don't even have to change your abilities to adapt! If you have any questions about engineer in the future, don't hesitate to shoot me a PM on here or a mail/whisper in game (Natt.1305). I'm AFK sometimes so if you message me ingame a mail might work best in case I miss the whisper.


Thank you! I'll certainly keep that in mind!


That's true about it being that way in most if not all games. I wonder if it comes from the "support" that's often also thrown in with this class fantasy. Generally those are pretty under played classes...I think because people want to be the hero in their fantasies. It's rare to see someone wanting to play a supportive role in someone else's power fantasy. Realistically though, it's bound to be a mixture of all these things. Some say it's a complicated class. Some say it's not meta, some don't like the fantasy. Kind of weird to expect too many people to work harder for less performance in a niche class fantasy.


Yeah that's fair. Imo I've heard the "work harder for less performance" thing a bunch, and if you're *only* talking about DPS, then sure you're absolutely right. But like... There's not a single build of the *complicated* builds (ie. Any with kits), on engie that doesn't also have crazy breakbar potential. Or combo fields. Or the ability to choose to group heal, or cleanse, or blind, or stealth. I dunno, you work hard with engie, but DPS scrapper let's you do group stealth if you want, or *1500* range ranged damage w/ 100% projectile finishers so you can always contribute. This is including the max stacks of barrier you permanently have, the ability to res up to 3 targets every 20-50 seconds, easy access to blocks, reflects, etc. DPS holosmith, Kitless holosmith, and core engie are also in similar boats. They're also able to swap to condi with minimal changes to build or rotation if necessary. I dunno, I'm an engie-main since beta so I absolutely love the class, and I know it's not everyone's thing, but there's a ton of cool shit you can do with engie that I haven't been able to replicate on other classes.


then why is almost everyone boring humans?


Because after your 3rd jumping puzzle as Charr you reroll.


to asura... the superior choice for all jumping, not boring humans


Kits, trenchcoats, and we don't have that many legendary effects especially while using our kits might've scared people away.


I can play all other classes just fine but my main gripe with engi is that I feel like I have a hard time finding an identity with it, for example as a warrior I play this blood thirsted barbarian and that is represented as playing berserker and hitting 20k burst every 2 seconds with axes. With Engi, it's like...I guess I used explosives but they don't really hit hard, I guess I do condi's but it's kinda meh, the kits are fun but I never feel like they're as meaningful as swapping attunements or Legends or swapping weapons. It's just too "Jack of Trades, master of none". Of course this is just my opinion, Holosmith felt like it had more of an identity but not enough. Engi is pretty much the only profession where I don't have full ascended on and the least play time.


I didnt want to play a medieval looking game with magic, dragons and shit, just to play as a guy with a flamethrower or a gun


Honestly, that's the exact reason I picked the class lmao. I love the idea while everyone else is solving their problems with magic and brute strength, I'm just solving my problems by setting everything on fire


Asuras in general are not that medieval if you ask me, just saying.


Kit weapons are visually extremely outdated, and ugly. Turrets are visually extremely outdated, ugly, AND useless. Core weapons are visually dull, have overall poor damage, bad auto attacks, and force you to use one skill then swap to a bland kit. Elixirs are boring, visually dull, and unfortunately one of the better option. Notice a pattern? For a game the emphasizes visuals and customization, this class is very lacking. (And I play Engi heavily.)


People don't much like the class fantasy. You see the same sort of numbers for Machinist in FFXIV.


I would be a person that DOES like that class fantasy but I don't really like the gameplay that much. I think the kits aren't very fun I'd much rather turrets be stronger are more exciting visually. That on top of the fact they only have a few weapons and no exciting weapon skills doesn't help much either.


This is the main reason for sure. People play what interests them much more than they play something based on performance.


Going from core, engi had a lot in common with ele mechanically, substituting kits for attunements. Yes, the exact how of their implementation was different but changing out your weapon skills via selection was very similar. Players had to memorize a large number of skills without constantly seeing them on their toolbar and gave up basic weapon swap. Ele had two advantages: a large pool of players tuning in to play a mage, and the ability to provide benefits to other players such as healing, stability, and meteor shower’s large hit box aoe. Engineer couldn’t match the variety as well as ele could. Ele ruled in a lot of content (yes, the worm has turned). Players desiring a piano player playstyle gravitated to ele. One the die was cast, it continued. I’d argue engi is in a better place than ele right now but will take a lot of time to overcome the inertia if it ever happens.


Ele also has the advantage of having light armor for those that want to be half naked and the fantasy archetype of being a mage with a staff. Plus with staff you could just camp fire, so even though its a complex class to play to its fullest, it still had something for the lazy.


I don’t like it’s class identity.


Build diversity definitely isn't the biggest factor I think. I think the biggest thing that puts people off of engineer is that it requires toolkits and toolbelt skills to compete with other classes, which leads to very complicated rotations for average at best results. this is a double edged sword, because it means that when engineer is performing well, it's *really* performing well (pre-early HoT sinister grenade builds), and when it's not performing well, it's just kind of average and a risky pick. An example of build diversity (outside of a raiding environment) is the might stacking flamethrower scrapper. you could even mix this up by tossing quickness and boon duration into it. This build currently works decently well in all 3 game modes (though wvw will require you to put on some bulk to survive). There's the quickness dps scrapper, or the quickness healing scrapper, or the power dps holosmith, the condi dps holosmith, the core engi flamethrower/bomb/grenade build(s). I could go on. Engineer has a lot of very viable builds on most of its elite specs. Build diversity really isn't the issue, because some classes (warrior cough cough same builds since launch cough cough) would kill for this level of variety, yet still manage to be more popular by an awful lot. The real problem is.. something else. I'm not confident enough to even begin to suggest how to address it. A trait rework might go a long way to help, and making the non-elite weapons better would do good too.


Might also need a new non-elite weapon. Engi has so little. Rifle as a 2h, then you have only two other options: Pistol is the only mainhand so there's no choice there, and your offhands are pistol or shield. That's only 3 options for core weapons. Rifle, offhand pistol or shield. Elite specs bring this up to a total of 6 combinations (Hammer, Sword/Shield, Sword/pistol), which is still pitiful. By comparison, necro has 14 possible weapon combinations atm.


I really wish that all of engineers elite weapons weren't exclusively locked to elite specs. I don't think letting scrapper or base enginineer run sword mainhand would break the bank.


This has been my argument since the disaster that was scrapper at HoT launch. It was so bad. All I wanted since then is the engin to have the unique mechanic of unlocking weps permenantly due to it's extreme limitations. Heck, as far as I was concerned, they could just delete scrapper and leave us with the hammer. That would have been an improvment. Since then, they turned it around significantly. Especially by getting rid of those awful AI based gyros. We warned them. We shouted it on every forum. AI is too unreliable. They ignored us and launched with a broken mess. It took 5 years for them to fix it. This is why I'm so against the idea of more AI on the next elite. We've seen how that goes for 9 years now. 9 years of proof across multiple classes that AI is a bad idea. Just give us weapon unlocks, anet. That way, if you insist on breaking fashion wars or giving us AI, at least the core class would have more options for weapons.


The only upside to the old gyros was how busted OP bulwark gyro was. I really miss the days when scrapper was a proper brawler spec in pvp


For me it's the core weapons. The Pistols and Rifle feel *awful* to play, honestly the worst weapons in the game in my opinion. Hammer and Sword only *just* make up for that. Sword isn't particularly fancy either but at least Holosmith has Photon Forge.


I used to like rifle but for some reason Anet keeps going back to this weapon to randomly change how its skills work and each time it becomes more clunky or bland.


Fitting that you forgot about the shield.


because for long stretches of GW2's life engi required a lot more effort just to deliver same or worse results than playing a different class if professions were game modes then engi is wvw


Which is funny because WvW was the only place I ever felt worth playing my engi.


I think it's the "cool" factor. Engi just doesn't attract quite as many casual players as a Guardian or a Mesmer. A new player doesn't know what a class does, what its builds are, rotations, etc. they just roll what sounds cool. Engi might be the least interesting one and it doesn't help that it's kinda hard too so very few people are going to tell you to roll one. Same thing happened in WoW to the Monk class. It doesn't blend into the lore as well as some other classes so even if it's really fun to play, it still takes last place.


This is not helped by the fact that Bomb Kit has been one of the most enduring skill on engi the animations for it are just ugly across all races.


As a self loathing engineer main: \- Forced Kit Gameplay: This isn't everyone's cup of tea, hell it isn't my cup of tea, but I forced myself to get competent with all of the kits so I have a feel for each of the important CDs you end up swapping into. \- Worthless Utility Skills: When kits are an option (No CD weapon swap to 1 or more high damage or high utility skills with a relatively low cd) its difficult to justify using anything else in its place. While yes non utility skills have had their time to shine and many are still played today, generally you run 2 or more kits only leaving room for so many utility skills. \- Class Fantasy: Some people play a high fantasy game to play a high fantasy class. Building your way into emulating other classes doesn't necessarily fit that. \- Lack of Weapons: The total lack of weapon diversity really sucks. Core Engineer is limited to rifle for power builds, pistols for condi builds, forced to use Pistol MH if you want to use Shield OH. This leaves so much to be desired. \- Legendaries in Kits and available Legendaries to be used: You lose the visuals while having a kit equipped. The first legendary that we got that looks remotely like something an engineer would use was HOPE. Assuming we get mace in End of Dragons, the next one will be EUREKA. \- Styles: There are few options to look like an "Engineer" with the medium armors available. \- Balance: For almost the entirety of Heart of Thorns scrapper was for the most part, a dead spec. It had no place in PvE and it was difficult to justify running it in PvP. It wasn't until relatively recently that Scrapper was reworked quite a bit and able to find its place in the world. But this happened in a post Holo world (something that attracted many players to actually give the class a try because of how flashy, overturned, and easy it was to get a hold of). tl;dr: For years engineer was never inviting to players.


Speaking purely for myself - kits. They were a novel idea, but they're really clunky to me. Couple that with a limited pool of weapons and here we are.


the engineer gameplay is not simple. You have your base weapon and like 4 or 5 kits. And you need to be basically bouncing between the kits and weapons and everything. Engineer gameplay is basically almost playing a piano. For a lot people, it's too intense. Something like guardian is simpler and more rewarding than playing an engineer. Engineers are super versatile and can be satisfying to master but the amount of effort to get to that point is much much higher compared to nearly any other class.


Engi requires too much work for not enough reward, full stop. Holo/Scrapper do a lot to fix the inherent weakness of the class, but it's still a clunky class for me to play. Also, I'm really fucking bad at it, so take my words with an entire mountain of salt. (For the record, I main Thief and I'm equally bad at it, but I find it more fun, at least.)


The meta is Human Female. You can have a skimpy thief in underboob armour, and you can have a ranger with sparkles out the ass shooting rainbows and sunshine. But “hot mechanic” isn’t currently a meta build. The most commonly picked races for engi are asura and charr, most asura are too small and their childlike stature disqualifies them from the meta. A few ~~freaks~~ people are into Charr, if only for the extra boobs, unfortunately no armour set currently shows them off adequately. That is why engineer is the least played class.


You don't get turned on by a girl in coveralls? Oh baby.


I love this comment


As a charr engi I lold.


Engineer was my last class I played mostly because I didn't really vibe with the theme of the class. All the other classes (except warrior) had more of an appeal to me, and with warrior the weapon skills available were enough to draw me in. I also watch alot of build guide videos and all none of the engi builds looked that fun to me cause I'm a slut for magic or mobility (never saw zoomer scrapper).


Too many buttons. I got a fancy mouse with extra buttons and it's still not enough buttons.


As an engineer main since I started, it really just boils down to swapping kits all the time not being fun, and you need to use them in order to play a lot of builds optimally. In many builds, you even use kits more than your weapon of choice... and it really sucks. I play power holo and even though a couple of grenade tosses are technically optimal, I don't do it. I hate it, but I love the other aspects of the elite spec. I like Scrapper for the gyros too, but kits are incredibly dominant in those builds. Although I like to stick to the first character I make for sentimental value in any game, I probably won't be able to main Engineer forever, and luckily this game makes it easy to switch.


Came into it hoping to use tech and sharpshooting and all I got was this dumb shirt and a bag full of firecrackers they call grenades


Turrets are about as fundamental to the engineer fantasy trope as pets are for rangers, and in this game they are a massive disapointment.


I am not a fan of guns so it kinda takes it out of any playtime for me. On top of that I do not like hammers either lol. Havent tried holo. Maybe when we get a new spec it might be something to try.


Over-complicated kit rotation, none of the individual skills feel particularly powerful, and overly-niche ultility skills all make the engie feel distinctively underwhelming.


Perceived difficulty, kits replacing your fancy skins, tech in a mostly magic world and medium armor having few options are my guesses.


Engineer is now my 2nd fav character, but if I had to play core engi instead of the elites, I would never made it past lvl 5


Yesterday I was frastuated by Ascent to Madness instance. I had to finish it 10 times and I'm not particularly good in any pve content. I can solo it but it takes time. "How can I make it go faster?" question was blinking sparkly neons in my head and the final answer was surprisingly my old hybrid engineer. It went from 10 minutes of my poor mesmer to 8 minutes of my elementalist then went to 6 minutes of engineer. I don't even main engineer and I was thrilled to see current speed run solo engineer best timer is around 5.40 (Maybe there are even faster ones, I didn't dig much) When it was done, I just wanted to not press any keyboard buttons for few hours though. It could be done far more faster with 5 people, knowing what they are doing, but I don't have anyone to play with. TLTR: Engineer is good but it needs players full focus and it's tiring.


2 reasons: 1) only having pistol and rifle as a proper weapon. no melee weapon at all unless using elite specs. this limits build variety a lot. 2) kits are bad. I mean it’s nice that they are there but they can’t replace a proper weapon, especially since you can’t customize them and they feel clunky to use. give the engineer more default weapons and a weapon swap in combat and way more people would play this class. core engi is just really lackluster and not fun to play because of how limited it is imo.


Once a year or so I see a thread from someone complaining that they have to use kits or that it has too many buttons, but the active rotations and having a tool or gadget for every situation is what I love about it. It also had pretty much no good PvE support options at all until Scrapper was given better quickness generation earlier this year. It’s great now, but even then it has to work much harder for that quickness than most others. Now if only turrets were good.


The thing about turrets is that when they are good it creates passive and unfun gameplay. This is why they got nerfed into the ground in the first place. Its the same reason spirit ranger isn't a thing. Either they work and its just boring to play with or against them or they are trash. There really is no middle ground with minion specs. The only way to make minions good is to give them the gyro treatment.


I understand the reasons, especially for PvP, but I still wish they were good. I loved spirit spammer ritualist in GW1, and the turrets being similar but with different effects and utility is what drew me to the class in the first place at launch. It’s a lot of fun in the open world. After the core campaign, they just get blown up in one attack. Necro minion builds are more fun, more useful, more mobile, and more durable.


Yea, Engi was my first character and only one to get map completion. I played it for the turrets, now they suck. I don't care that bots can farm easier, not my problem.


It doesn’t look appealing to me


TIL: engineers are shit and I've been playing the game on hard + boring mode for 9 years.


I’d be careful from taking too much from this post. I main power holosmith and get top dps in just about every mode I play on (raids, open world, strikes, drm cm), and the utility skills are extremely useful. Good cc as well. While the responses about people talking about how it was at launch are valid as well as personal likes/dislikes regarding the lore or whatever, people who say it is weak or lacking effective utility have clearly never learned it or are just bandwagon bashing it ignorantly.


Yea thanks but no worries. My favorite character across all MMOs I play is my Sylvari Engi.


Too complicated for the mediocre reward you get out of it. Scrapper and Holosmith are significant improvements, but they're just bandaids on core engineer and gated behind paid expansions. Turns out people don't really play complex classes because they're fun; they play them when they are both fun and appropriately rewarding. Just look to elementalist, which *was* appropriately rewarding for its complexity, and popular as a result. It isn't so much nowadays, so you see fewer of them than there would be, for the same reason as engineer.


I can't view the site on this restricted internet. Could someone be kind enough to copy/paste the list, please? Edit: now that I know engi is underloved, I want to try it out.


Profession (Characters) #1 Guardian 353,219 (12.63%) #2 Necromancer 335,967 (12.01%) #3 Warrior 330,482 (11.82%) #4 Ranger 327,146 (11.70%) #5 Mesmer 315,791 (11.29%) #6 Elementalist 304,315 (10.88%) #7 Thief 304,141 (10.88%) #8 Revenant 277,163 (9.91%) #9 Engineer 248,161 (8.87%)


For me personally the engi died when they basically killed turrets. Giros sounded nice but they are basically just moving AoEs and less mobile turrets. I think their weapon sets are also outdated or at least not used that much. Can't remember the last time I saw an engi with a main hand pistol and/or a shield for example.


I won't be able to find the source on this as it's quite old but I remember from some survey pre-HoT that it was *mesmer* that was the least played class. Gonna guess that changed with the advent of the Chronojail era


I’ve never found the aesthetic compelling, is basically the only reason I’ve never made one


Aside from all of the answers on here I will tell you what killed it for me. There was a time period (during LS1) where there were a fuck load of enemies that had projectile reflects. How useless I felt against those enemies really crystallized for me how few real options Engineer has against these enemies. Even now unless you are playing one of the specializations you really only have the bomb kit or the toolkit to do something about it and neither of those are amazing.


Too much work to do decent dps.


Power holosmith enters the chat with top dps with a simple rotation.


You have to press an assload of keys in an assload of different ways to accomplish the same thing as the dude next to you auto-attacking. Some people find this fun, most recognize the benefit of just rolling a class that lets you do things other than focus on your rotation.


The cool toys in the engi's kit got reworked or removed (old mortar elite skill was hillariously weak but still fun to fuck with). And just general kit nerfing and shit since they came out. Lots of extra kits so you dont get to stick to your guns. And the theme of the kit doesn't have its visuals hold up.


A lot of people don't associate guns with fantasy and most people aren't playing for mechanics, but rather flavor. Necromancers are not only easy to play but they're a standard fantasy trope. Undead minions! Cool! For a long time I also didn't like the idea of firearms in fantasy, and I felt I was a fantasy purist because of it. I avoided games where firearms met magic, which is stupid, but there you have it. As I got older and read more fantasy, I began to see there were plenty of guns in fantasy. I broadened my horizons. But I'd wager a lot of people aren't going to a fantasy MMO to play a guy with guns and bombs. And elementalist however, with fireballs? Where do I sign up?


I think they started as a below average class from day one and have never been brought up the the average level of the other classes.


The specialisations help a lot. Core engi is boring as all hell, and leveling them is a chore. Throw some cool holosmith stuff or drones and hammer in there and you feel like some kind of badass technomancer. It’s one of the classes I’m most torn when people ask if they should boost them. On one hand it’s a slog to level them up, but if you do level them up, you might not even like the complex play style they have with how many skills and skill sets they have.


Its a fantasy game with dragon logo boxart. Thats why.


I feel (mechanically) most of the comments touch on different aspects of one core problem of engi imho. It's a jack of all trades *but*: 1. It forces you into the jack of all trades builds 2. It's not actually a good jack of all trades There are some classes with a jack of all trades quality: firebrand and ele are good examples (although ele could use some work to realize it's potential more). The difference is you can *build* those classes to be different things, and that locks you out of other things. You, the player, get to choose which side of the class to focus on and which aspect to realize. For engi everything is... Everything. You don't have *the* dps kits/traitlines, *the* heal/support/control. You have stuff that leans more or less into one side or the other, but everything has several different purposes. Meaning when you build for a certain thing, you get a fuckton of dead buttons/traits and the class makes you dance around all of the now "useless" things to get to the ones you need, which translates to complexity. You can of course build an all-rounder with decent self sustain but due to the evolution of the game all-rounders are just useless at everything. And there are other classes with similar sustain that have more defined, and thus more functional roles (like reaper being a high sustain dps). And to add insult to injury, a lot of the options are very much undertuned (the support side didn't age well, even with the new quickness change) meaning a lot of the skills will feel weak *even if you build into them*. So imho the issue and easy fix is rework with the focus on compartmentalization. Pick deeps kits and traitlines, boost their dps potential, remove/significantly weaken their control/support/sustain potential, do the same for sustain, control and support options as well. It would make kits feel more significant, give them stronger identity, remove some needless complexity, and open up new available builds for the class. It would still be a "i can do everything" class, but not a "i can do everything at the same time, but badly" class. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.


Not being able to weapon swap in combat is a massive detriment, and must be compensated in one way or another. Elementalist gets 4 different weapon bars as compensation, and engineer gets kits. Kits are not necessarily equal to elementalist's attunement. They eat up a utility skill slot that I'm sure you would rather spend on something else. They are clunky, and don't offer much in the way of utility. By and large, the "good kits" that engineer has lean HEAVILY towards being able to do damage, and offer some slight controlling effects, and again, offer very little in terms of mobility, utility, etc. In terms of why I don't think engi is played a lot, this is the biggest one. Either you gut your utility and complicate your rotation, or you have fewer weapon skills and the profession plays slower. Engineer's traitlines are a bit of a mess, as other people have said. They don't offer much in the way of a cohesive build. Too many of the traitlines have one or two good traits, and you wish you didn't have to only pick 3 traitlines. As far as elite specs go? Scrapper is somewhat disappointing. The wells are fun, but offer very little in terms of a unique playstyle. Holosmith is cool! I really like holosmith, because it allows me to effectively have another weapon set AND still have all my utilities! If I am playing engineer, I am playing holosmith. Engineer is, (and I know this is rich coming from an ele), too much work for too little payoff, too steep of a learning curve, and in desperate need of some reworks. It's a fun profession! And I really enjoy playing engineer from time to time, but I always find myself thinking that I could get the same job done easier with XYZ other profession


When the game first launched, and still to this day, I had zero interest in having guns or "technology" in my world. I want/wanted my fantasy MMO. I want swords and axes and magic. Guns and wrenches and tools were not of any interest to me. I did, eventually, create a Holosmith, and I use a sword and pistol with him. It is also part of the reason I have no interest in Asura. (The other part is that they're just too ugly, IMO.)


My first character was engi. In the years I've played off and on, I only played my engi. Always wondered why the combat gotta be so confusing. Then finally one day I decided to level a necromancer and it was like a new world opened up.


I personally love playing Engineer. I am a newer player, and it’s the first class I played. I currently have two engineers, because I just can’t help myself. I feel like for a lot of people the class is a bit too “piano” with how many kit swaps/buttons there are to press and it could seem overwhelming. That and a lot of the normal engineer things like turrets could use a visual upgrade. Regardless, I love the class no matter what other people think of it. Engineer could use some love from Anet but I am still happy to play a mean-looking Charr Scrapper swinging my hammer around :)


I have always loved engineer, even though it does feel underpowered. Throwing turrets was always fun, but I'm lazy too, so I just roll flamethrower scrapper with perma-stability and perma 10-stack might.


For what it's worth I have two engineer toons. I love the profession!


I just started and rolled one. Ive heard they suck at the end game or something but im having a lot of fun


Kits and turrets. To me, base engi feels the most outdated of all the classes.


Personally, as someone who likes the class, I have found engi to be more effort for less payoff. Just feels like the basic weapon skills (especially) are just.. disappointing. Also I don't like to use more than one kit and then still feel they should never replace weapon skills but rather complement them. That and if we talk fashion wars - leather armour is generally the least appealing / very specific. With my norn ranger I was glad I could use racial armour because I just didn't have anything fitting otherwise.


Main engineer since release. Its fine to me. People hate us cause they ain't us.


I enjoy Engi but I started playing it because my guild needed support Engis in WvW and I was willing to learn it. Now it's pretty much all I play. Some people have said kits are difficult but I suppose that's part of why I like it, constantly dropping in and out of my kits, managing cooldowns on essentially 3 weapons + utilities + toolbelt skills. It's a blast to me. That said, I don't play any other build. I have some DPS ones for when I'm off tag or when it's safe to swap to damage but I really just don't enjoy playing them that much. Something about it doesn't seem as fun. If I know I'm going to be able to play damage I'll come on my Necro or Ele instead.


I love playing engineer in open world and run either turret build for fun or scrapper if I’m trying to actually do anything.


I doubt this is the same answer for everyone but to me its simply: I don't like the playstyle. I love the playstyles of warrior revenant and guardian. So I prefer full frontal. And engi just never ticked that box for me.


The rotations are very complicated, mainly.


Love the class but I dont really like either of their elite specializations in pve. Scrapper is fun in pvp though. For a class that has so many buttons to press and hurts itself it doesn't really place well in the dps benchmarks right now its actually the last place class on snowcrow's website (though some builds for other classes are lower).


For open world gamers: Kits are boring for most If you want a big power spike transformation, reaper is a thing, and it's popular and is said to be the best role for casuals Core weapons are awful to play if you don't want kits, especially during leveling AED is awkward For raiders (based on discussions with guildmates and pugs): Engi still has a reputation for piano gameplay. Kitless is a thing but people see kits=best dps and give up Scrapper still has a stigma of being bad in pve. Remember how long fractal players picked chronodruid over alacgade ? Same with scrapper AED is awkward


I love playing engi, but once I develope tendonitis from my day job I'll hate it. It is annoying for new players that you can't pick up items while in forge too


They're so complicated! I forget what the kits do all the time.


I love my engineer. Having said that, I can totally understand why it's not very popular. Many of the skills are pretty much useless (does anyone use the Tools kit at all?) or only good in very niche situations. And the skills you do have that are useful usually need to be hit in a specific order and timeframe in order to make the best use of them.


Honestly, I don't know. It seems like most ppl don't like kits. Personally I love kits. I hate weapon swapping cause for my hands on my keyboard, the weapon swap key is a pain for me. I will kit swap all bloody day quite happily. Obv I main engi and scrapper is my jam.


The OG engineer is absolutely terrible and has a grand total of 3 weapons. All 3 are terrible. It wants to push kits and turrents. Turrents have a long cooldown and do very little. Kits are mostly weak and take up slots to switch to a bundle. The most damning of all is the Elite Mortar Kit, which is the argued to be the defacto kit replacement for weapons. You can't autoattack with it and are therefore having to spam the button for every aoe hit, making it a carpal tunnel nightmare. I will also add, when it started giving me carpal tunnel, I just switched to the elixer gun and said "fuck it" to any dmg lose until I farmed in enough groups to unlock the scrapper. Rant aside, the elites on the engineer are pretty great.


Rotations are one of the 2 most complex in the game (ele the other) And they nerfed the crap out of the turrets years ago so that they aren’t worth ever taking with you, which was one of the original unique selling points of the core class


reading this , it makes me wanna try engi again


I want to use my weapons. My weapons skills. I hate to be always locked with kits. Especially I hate moronic grenade and bomb kits locking inside most engi damage for years and years and years. Crapper and holo lightened kits pressure but still in most builds you need to be crapping pots or balls at your feet on cd.


Hard to level because class doesn't kick in at all until much later. Not like thief or necro that are pretty much functional at level 10+ Notoriously hard rotation for condi grenadier, even though there are new builds and classes it was the case for years that condi engi was the piano rotation. Weird thematics. I like the skills but they'd be cooler as magic attacks than bombs and grenades. Can use very few weapons, tied to how hard it is to start getting into the class.


Engineer is just not a good edgy fantasy for many players. Literally all other classes in one form of another are "edgy" enough to be interesting to people who like fantasy. You go into this fantastical world where anything is possible... and you use ordinary weapons and 20th century technology that exists in the real world.


Im not a fan of tech classes in fantasy games with magic. I know they use magic based technology, but I just cant get into a class using guns and machinery.


Engi is my favourite class, tried all oi them at launch, stayed with Engi and never made any alts lmao


Core feels sluggish to play, at least for me. Also strongest utilities are kits, and I know a lot of players dont find kits idea appealing, same way as I hate Conjured elementalist weapons. I actively choose builds and rotations which don't involve them.