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One of my favorite things about Cardona these days is that [he will randomly text Vince McMahon and Vince will text him back.](https://youtu.be/WabL3iN6C88?t=163)
Vince even texted him on his bday “Happy Birthday Zack” and i think it was a picture of them together.
Vince has to be one of the strangest, most contradictory people on the planet (obvious statement, I know). In some stories he seems like the friendliest, most thoughtful boss you can have, taking care of former employees and staying in contact with even lower level people you’d never expect him to. Like, texting former employees on their birthdays? In all my working life, I think I’ve only ever known the birthday of one of my coworkers.
But the way he treats his employees in general makes it seem like he couldn’t care less about their well-being. It’s just impossible to understand.
Supposedly he is fairly nice to the talent, and he has his lackeys give all the bad news
People are contradictory. I'm sure he can be really really good to some of the people, just not most of the people.
I've been around some executive/HR type people a decent amount in my life, it largely seems to be compartmentalization. Even at a like... pizza hut assistant manager level, you've got to screw over people you like sometimes. I'd imagine this just scales up to absurd levels when you hit the point of owning a multi-billion dollar company. So you both care about people at an individual level but still often have to think of them as walking piles of money and/or debt.
Well, there is that. But there is also the fact that the whole industry was dependent on the whims of one man due to the lack of cohesive laws on monopoly in the US?
It's just a different set of morals, whether it's right or wrong is another conversation altogether, but as to how he can be such an enigma I've come to believe he's not crazy he just has had a very strange upbringing/life. He's surrounded by carnies or amoral businessmen and it's just led to what we would call abnormal morals.
It's love bombing, typical narcissists behavior
Bet Shane didn’t get that 💀
Is it possible he has someone managing his texts like his Twitter?
Mark(Sterling) asked, Brian(Myers) said no way. He said he’s always on his phone. Then he told this story of Bobby Roode asking him to watch Vince as he watched his match. Brian said Vince didn’t look up at the monitor once, he was on his phone for the entire match.
2 smiley faces!
Cardona has mentioned on his pod that his podcast is so important to him that to return to WWE they’d have to offer him an absurd amount of money (I think he legit said over $1,000,000 cash) or guarantee full independence of the pod.
He has also mentioned he learned a lot for his Z! True Long Island Story days and likely would have quit WWE if he was still with them once the Twitch issue situation had come up
Lana lost out on six figure Instagram sponsorship deals when WWE cracked down on social media stuff.
Jesus Christ is there anything easier that WWE could do to make talent happy than let them keep deals like that?
WWE can't bear to let talent be successful and make a name for themselves outside of WWE. They all have to be interchangeable cogs in the WWE machine.
I know that you’re talking from their perspective so: shouldn’t you want your talent out there making a name for themselves? They want to be seen in the main stream, they want more viewers so let the talent do that hustle and make some money on the side.
Of course you need to have certain ethical standards and maybe some quality control so WWE can “sign off” on things.
The only name WWE wants you to care about is WWE.
What’s insane about it to me is that letting stars shine on their own only helps WWE. Say someone like Lana or Zack Ryder becomes independently famous. So what? It’s good for WWE either way. Either they’ve now got a huge star on their show (maybe part-time on their show), or there’s now another famous WWE alum, which only helps the brand. And if that star isn’t on the show anymore, that just creates another spot for another top talent to get a chance to be a success. It seems like a win-win all around. There’s always more talent if someone else becomes famous and leaves.
Totally agree, did WWE plug Sasha Banks’ role on the Mandalorian or do any targeted advertising at Disney+ subscribers? If not then they should have been.
WWE have much more control over their talent if their talent have no other income sources
And IMO they’re all lesser stars because of it. Every few years they will run a story where someone really needs their job and while it was awesome for Heath Slater, it made Shawn Michaels, Big Show and Kevin Owens look like chumps.
i think it worked for heath because he _was_ a lower card guy and his teammates _were_ let go
when you turn HBK or show or KO (guys who are supposed to be high up the card and taken seriously) into people slobbing on the boss's knob, it just doesn't resonate well
> I know that you’re talking from their perspective so: shouldn’t you want your talent out there making a name for themselves?
Not really, with what they are doing now. Brock Lesnar made a name for himself outside WWE and now he costs millions for a few appearances. He can go years without working. John Cena made a name outside WWE, and now they cant get him on the show more than once or twice a year because he's too busy. Dave Bautista made a name outside WWE and hes likely in the Cena category of "too busy to work". Zelina Vega felt she had a steady Twitch/OnlyFans business and started talking unionizing.
You know who didnt make their name outside WWE? Edge. You know who's been available to work a dozen or so matches this year and is never too busy when called upon? Edge. Imagine WWE right now if Edge, Randy Orton, Roman Reigns, and Seth Rollins all had the acting careers of those guys. Or if their 4HW had even the mild acting success Sasha did. What would they even put on TV and PPVs right now?
Its a god awful model long-term, since it inherently mean the company has less cultural cachet, less chances to pull in new fans, and no way of retaining anyone with greater ambitions...but, WWE is basically a shell game of TV contracts and blood money now, so reliably trapped workers >>>> independent thinkers (see: Bray, etc)
When a Rock or Cena or Brock crosses over to more mainstream celebrity it’s still good for WWE’s bottom line. It must be, or else the company wouldn’t be paying premiums to bring those guys back when they need to pop a buyrate.
They do a bad job of building new stars, which is why they need to bring them back. If contracted workers independently went to third parties and got huge followings, they wouldn't have to open the checkbook for a huge star like Brock, because they would have one on a cheaper contract. It's counterproductive.
They don't mind because those guys are over the hill anyways, but they were pissed when the Rock left and were pissed when Brock left. Cena was the only one they really supported
Batista is retired and Cena is semi retired. If he wasn’t an actor now I don’t see him being a full time guy either. You get to an age where you just can’t all the time anymore
Yet Brock is a bigger draw than anyone else because he’s not on TV every week wrestling the same people or having to cut promos using all of the weird corporate speak.
It's baffling to me that WWE thinks Rock and Cena being massive mainstream stars is *bad* for WWE.
To be fair it isn't that Edge went away on his voalition. He felt he had unfinished business and chose to return. Had he regularly retired, I'm sure he'd be bouncing his way to find himself on another series or something.
Best way I can describe it: They would rather be the one making the money, even if what they make is a mere fraction of what you can get on your own.
Oh yeah, I get what you mean, it just seems backwards.
I'm still trying to figure out why Eva Marie went back, she has enough stuff going on outside WWE. Why have her train,go back,and play the same useless role and job her out?
Not really, because once they become big enough they don't need WWE
They want people reliant on them to make money. If you need them for your pay check they can keep you until you’re 36 1/2 and nobody will want you.
Letting wrestlers branch out, get popular on their own, leave WWE and not need them? Absolutely not.
I can also assume their concern is that they become big outside of WWE, with getting deals like this, using their WWE fame and eventually don't need WWE anymore and just leave. Look at Rock and Cena having used their WWE fame to springboard into movies. I am sure the WWE higher ups hate stuff like that because now they don't have Rock and Cena anymore and probably don't want others to follow suit. This is, of course, only speculation on my part.
Makes sense but if want a few years of Rock and Cena at their hottest for a few years rather than lukewarm versions of them for a long time. Really they did get a lot out of Cena.
That is why perhaps they are interested in signing athletes and training them from scratch. They are hoping they would come to the WWE less "independent"? It is easier to manage people if all of their livelihood will depend on a single entity.
Oh yeah, that's exactly why they do it. And you can see it in action whenever they release people. The folks they hired from the indies tend to hit the ground running. Scarlett at like a dozen signings set up within a couple days. Compare that to Strowman, who I think has done one show since he was released.
I imagine at the very least, you really need to have a backup plan when you're signing with them. Because it might be over in 6 months and you won't be even allowed on the grounds to collect your things.
It used to be the case that you could sign for WWE and at least have a guaranteed paycheck. Now they'll just cut you with almost no warning. I really have no idea why anyone would sign with them at this point.
I think Mark Henry made the case to Braun Stowman when he wasn't sure whether he should sign, that there are far better pay there than in strongmen competitions.
So that and people who want to "build their brand", no matter the way.
Being a pro wrestler is hard and many really talented folks do not always make it. But the allure of the industry is too strong. And that is why despite the increasingly horrible practices of WWE, I don't think they will run out of people willing to subject themselves to that treatment.
As a side note. my guess is that at least in the foreseeable future, WWE will double down on the search of people like Bianca Belair, with an occasional indie darling signing, while AEW will go out on the WRESTLING part of the equation. WWE will have its performance centre and NXT to build its roster, while AEW will have indies cut out its work for them in finding new talents.
That wasn’t the issue. The issue was they were using a WWE owned character and getting those deals. If they were just streaming as themselves, running stuff like normal, that’s one thing. When you’re sticking your WWE logo around and blatantly doing stuff wrong like Paige streaming movies on Twitch or AJ Styles openly talking about backstage drama as AJ Styles, it creates issues. On every contract, it states what you can and can’t do, and once a couple of people start breaking this, you can’t just take it away from a few. Tyler Breeze explains it better than I ever could
AJ Styles isn't a WWE-made or owned character, is he still banned from streaming?
Lmao, I could not care less about any of this. Punish the people who violate their contract, whatever, don't make an idiotic blanket decision that very obviously drives people away from your company. It's indefensible.
Working for WWE is the retail job of the wrestling world, it seems.
If you saw some of the shit that Lana was shilling, you'd understand why WWE would be pissed off that she was promoting it on her "Lana" account.
Vince is a control freak who walked ass backwards into multiple superstars when there was a massive talent boom in the industry and there weren’t that many entertainment options to choose from. His ego gets in the way all the time.
I mean, if you want proof, go back and look at the inVasion. That should have been the pinnacle of 20 years of American wrestling, with a year of dream match pay-per-views and hundreds of millions of dollars made for everyone. It was EASY MONEY.
Nope, Vince’s control freak ego got in the way.
In retrospect, I have no idea how the hell Steve Austin and Mick Foley got to be the stars that they did. If today’s Vince were running the old Federation, we would have had Marc Mero and Mark Henry (his big money signings) jammed down our throats while Austin and Foley probably would have gotten laid off.
All he had to do is go to those wrestlers and ask for a cut - say 15%, and have a WWE logo in the background somewhere. Let them get over in a new medium not understood by an 80 year old.
To quote CM Punk, he’s a millionaire who should be a billionaire.
I’d guess there reasoning is why are you going to bump your ass off for 500k when you can make 1mil on Instagram or playing video games
Not even easier but honestly makes thr independent contractors situation fraudulent.
You legally can't control that shit AND be an independent contractor.
The issue is nobody gonna sue WWE over it.
I don't think it's *right* but plenty of companies are very good at having all the benefits of employees and all the beneifts of contractors, and making sure their workers have all the downsides of both.
Adam Cole made 300,000 USD from twitch BEFORE accounting for donations in the last year from twitch.
This has to be false. Twitch streamer revenue for the top earners was leaked months ago and there was a site you could search and see how much people made within the last 2 years from Twitch payouts (donations not included). Bigger streamers than Adam weren’t making 300k a year.
That leak is where they got that $300k figure.
That leak was over a 2 year period so if it said 300k that means he really made 150k a year. A bit more reasonable considering a lot of bigger streamers were “only” making 250k a year.
I looked it up, and yeah the list says he made $318k over that 2 year period. Not per year as OP indicated.
He had like a hundred thousand subscriptions? Cause I'm pretty sure he doesn't have one of the Twitch deals where they give him more than 60% of the sub.
I actually have no clue, but it was the number that was reported in the twitch salary leak. Which many creators confirmed to be accurate.
Lol Right I totally forgot that happened, it's awesome that Cole is making good money on Twitch, folks absolutely love his stuff and he seems to really love doing it.
I believe a lot of the subs are from a few strange individuals that gift subs to basically anything with a pulse that comes near the stream. Similar to how Paige can get a lot of subs/money while actually having barely anyone watching. I can't imagine he has 100k subs though.
That 300k number is a mix of 3 sub tiers, 3 gifted sub tiers, Twitch Ads and Twitch Bits. Factor in paid promos and direct donations he made nearer to 500k.
Yeah ads and bits are what I wasn't counting, I doubt the higher tier subs would account for more than a couple thousand subs , very very few people will go that route instead of gifting extras or direct donations / bits.
It's shocking but not surprising but what you said is correct that number is not the net total you have to take away the Twitch cut and taxes but once you factor in direct donations and paid game promos its really an amazing side job for him.
Honestly it was less the total value and more the amount of subs (because I was stupid and forgot to factor in bits) that threw me because last I checked (which was 6+months ago) he was in the <1k average viewers on his stream which is enough to earn a lot of money depending on dedication but usually doesn't end up in that many subs.
No that's over the course of a year mate. Subscriptions are monthly - and they stated it was before donations. No idea what their source is for the figures
Edit: a word
Yeah it would be a hundred thousand month long subscriptions, I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it since we don't know how many people subbed for how long. They said "before accounting for donations" unless they meant private donations not twitch bit donations which I realize now is probably what they meant.
No, that was over two years, not one year. He makes about $150k per year before tips.
This number is his total earnings all time as of the leak
And then got fired q year later.
Its such a weird stipulation. Either "Give me over a million dollars! Or just let me keep my podcast pls."
So Cardona is open for a WWE return but not anytime soon though?
It's a "never say never" business in all but the moist extreme circumstances.
For his sake, I hope the humidity is under control for the rest of his career.
I’d say his future is cloudy at this point.
Cloudy with a high chance of gold you mean.
Let's not go crazy. It's best to dampen his expectations.
He already won the GCW title this year.
So...you didn't realize that this was a pun thread? Because this response just doesn't carry water.
Just giving him credit to avoid appearing shallow
Ughh ughh fuck, Squall from Final Fantasy is one of my favorite characters.
moist extreme means more extreme than death. Even Paul Bearer returned after dying
Nailz is a moist extreme circumstance
The reason Nailz is never coming back isn’t because assaulted VKM, it’s because he can’t draw a penny.
They brought back Jeff Jarrett tho
His problem is drawing dimes, not pennies.
So like, he’ll return if he gets to feud with John Morrison?
Will it be for custody of his dad?
>So Cardona is open for a WWE return but not anytime soon though?
Gotta raise his stock like Drew did.
I mentally interpreted his comment as "I would be willing to return to WWE for that paycheck."
Good for him. He's clearly having a great time doing what he's doing nowadays, and he doesn't seem desperate to go back - but he's not been bitter about it that I've seen and has taken lessons from his experience.
I'm sure he has a price. I can imagine it might well be lower in a year or two, but he doesn't need to be in a rush to go back when he's proving he can be a success outside of the WWE bubble.
>I'm sure he has a price.
Honestly, after he was first released I just assumed he'd have been thrilled to go back under any circumstances, but I was wrong. His podcast seems to be doing well and he's clearly having a blast on the indie scene. He doesn't need them as much as I thought he would. Not to say he'll never go back, but he's not going to go crawling back.
Yeah I don't see Cardona wanting to go back to WWE anytime soon, especially since he has made a name for himself over on the indies scene as well as Impact, but I can see Cardona maybe (in the future) going back to WWE in someway, whether if it's for the Hall of Fame or for a special event or maybe a one-off appearance, similar to what Heath did before going over to Impact.
It’s the right move, tbh. Let him continue to develop and raise his profile on the indies. He’s a hell of a free agent heel right now, but it’s working so well he should stick to it, then come back to a mega pop at the Rumble in the Rumble after next or so.
Then he will be back to where he was before he left. Let's face it no matter what he does outside of WWE he will never have what he wants with that company. He will never have control of his podcast they will never pay him or treat him with top star money. All for a pop? If I was him i would never consider going back how they treated him
Dude's proven he can be plenty successful outside of WWE, don't see any reason outside an enormous contract to come back. I feel like if he did come back, he'd maybe feud with Matt Riddle over who the biggest Broski in the WWE is, and then appear on random RAW opening bouts for the rest of time
Even an enormous contract won’t last that long at his age, and he can be released at any time.
In his situation, I wouldn’t risk a successful content network for it.
With all due respect he doesn’t do a lot of bad talking about WWE. At the end of the day, did they screw him over by not pushing him in 2011-12? Yeh they did.
But it’s like when people used to mock Curt Hawkins on Twitter and he’d reply with how much money he makes compared to them. You make an insane amount of money. You’re wrestling for the company you likely grew up dreaming of wanting to wrestle for.
And he got some great Mania moments. Mania 32. Mania 35. WWE misused him but they gave him fun moments ya know. I think there won’t be much surprise when he goes back in a few years.
Idk, Drew was a jobber in 3MB before going and making a name for himself on the Indies. Now he's a top star in WWE. Why can't Ryder follow a similar path?
Because WWE was always behind Drew, Vince McMahon himself introduced Drew as the chosen one. Zack Ryder at his peak popularity was being pushed off a stage in a wheelchair while his gf was cheating on him
Previously he was a huge fan of WWE. But it’s smart to not burn bridges as well, you never know.
No, this comment is completely in character
Only if he comes back as deathmatch Cardona and brings bundles and bundles of light tubes out to every match
Or he can swing one them around like Big Bossman.
They'll give him glow sticks instead lol
If he had the giant glowsticks that exploded goo everywhere when he hit people that could actually be really cool visually.
Jeff Hardy entered the chat
Are sugar glass light tubes a thing? You could do that gimmick and be safe.
The light tubes are just regular light tubes. They are made of really brittle glass and generally only cause superficial cuts. They are still dangerous if they break wrong, nick gage almost died and g raver caused permanent damage to his arm and hand from a lightube that broke wrong.
Didn't Nick Gage also almost killed David Arquette with one?
Yeah gage cut the shit out of his neck with one for sure. I was just listening to him talk about it on talk is jericho. The last time i had front row tickets the guy i went with also got cut by a stray piece of smashed light tube. It was so small he didnt even know it had happened until he got up to p and saw the blood.
If he returns they won't use him in any meaningful way at all. Hope he doesn't return.
By the time he returns, there will be 12 people on active roaster.
Gets all your chickens pregnant.
You just cock-a-doodled your last doo Roman Reigns.
Red Rooster vs the Big Dog
Book it Vince, you coward
Acknowledge the head of the roost
Hey Pedro. Guess what man! I’m on the rooster!
Come on guys, he obviously meant Active Toaster
The return of Terry Taylor?
Yeah it’s the new way of paying your dues. New wrestlers are required to show everyone how dedicated they are by roasting chickens for the rest of the roster.
So there’s a slight chance he main events?
12 people, but constantly rotated out with green NXT talent, then released 6 months later.
Why not? It seems like he’s become what they wanted, he’d be Drew McIntyre or at least Jinder Mahal all over again
On the other hand look at John Morrison. He killed it on Lucha Underground & TNA and was legitimately one of the biggest free agents in late 2019.
Upon his return they put him with The Miz again and while it's been an okay run, he's essentially in the same lower mid-card spot he was in when he left 8 years earlier.
32 was my first WrestleMania, and I popped so hard when he won the IC title that I actually slipped and fell on the floor of my living room. I have so many good memories of that show, even if it wasn't very good overall.
It was almost literally all downhill from there.
Yup, the show peaked at the first match and then just went to shit
What about the women triple threat, that match, the ladder match and AJ VS Jericho were highlights of the show, quality went down after those.
True those matches were pretty great, I just wish Sasha had won the triple threat
We did get Shane jumping off the cell out of it too, at least.
Wrestlemania 32 was such a 5 hours of boringness show.
Was there in person. Can confirm.
Corbin winning was cool, Shaq being there was cool, Ryder winning was really fun........yeah thats about it
The womens match and title announcement was good too. But other than those I had a horrible time. The wrong person won almost every match.
Bro he’s been talking bout that Hall of Fame shit for like 8 months now, Myers and Mark laugh at him every time he says it.
Why are people responding as if he's seriously discussing coming back? Lmao
I wonder if he knows that we know he's trolling people? I don't see him or anyone going back to that company knowing how they treat people like property and less like human beings.
He should return as the hardcore legend.
Cardore Legend, Zack Ryder.
Koko B. Ware and Hillbilly Jim made it to the HOF, Cardona making it it's surprisingly not that hard to believe.
At the rate they induct people nearly everyone who ever had any sort of run will get in.
Eventually I’ll be in I went to a show once
each year's Hall of Fame is essentially booked like a wrestling card itself. you have a lower-midcard gimmick, solid upper midcarder, main eventer, tag team, woman, etc. he could easily fill that first slot some year in the future.
"We are happy to be inducing Jarod Morgan, superfan. Jarod has attended nearly every WWE raw event in Milwaukee since 2001"
He's basically one of the poster boys for the upside of working outside WWE.
He basically just runs on appearance deals and works wherever he wants, while still monetizing his personal brand, and working less dates.
That Cardona fellow tried pushing Danhausen off a ramp in his new chair of many wheels. Cardona is now cursed, no WWE return for him.
Literally one year ago he had the reputation as someone that was so happy to just be in wwe that he would sit in catering for a year. What a turnaround for the death match ling.
I feel like he's trolling people I think hes a smart person and business man. His career looks to be more on fire than his time in WWE.
Everyone knows Cardona is a HOF headliner
He was intercontinental champion! That's champion of all the continents for christ sake!
The way he was treated, he'd be an idiot to go back. Nothing would change and he'd be in the same spot he was in before.
Still baffled how vince never pushed him harder when he was hot as hell
It comes across like Cardona enjoys the freedom of being a "free agent", but like a lot of guys he does eventually want to end his career in WWE.
I'd only want him back in WWE if WWE are actually gonna give him a chance after reinventing himself on the indies, like with Drew and Bobby. If they're just gonna have Matt be a jobber again then no thanks.
Like he has a say in it
I've come to respect Cardona more and more. Although I don't think he's HOF worthy he's had a good successful career and I respect him.
Cardona HOF confirmed
Pretty certain the WWE isn't interested in bringing him back anyway?..if they let go of Braun and Bray then this dude has no chance of returning
He'll never be in the HoF
his career is booming finally..he's a free man, why the hell would he want to go back to prison?
Because WWE has made people believe for 50 years that they are the end all-be all. AEW's birth is happenstance everything just came together just at the right moment. As an AEW fans I don't feel they will go out of business soon but their mere existence is helping the overall wrestling ecosystem.
What an immeasurably based answer
With all due respect, he’s not had a hof worthy career in WWE
But him acting like he is, is going to make him Hall of Fame worthy.
That's okay, neither have many HOF inductees
But Beth Phoenix has? Their HOF is not exactly reputable, anyone that had a run seems to get in.
You have plenty of examples to use as far as superstars that haven’t had many accomplishments, if any. Yet you chose Beth Phoenix.
Beth Phoenix picked up the reigns from the women who paved the way before her and will go down as one of the most legitimate wrestlers of the diva era, I'd argue she's HOF worthy for what she did for women's wrestling post attitude era and pre women's revolution
>Beth Phoenix picked up the reigns from the women who paved the way before her and will go down as one of the most legitimate wrestlers of the diva era, I'd argue she's HOF worthy for what she did for women's wrestling post attitude era and pre women's revolution
There is not a single storyline in Beth's entire run that I remember, let alone enjoyed.
She dated Santino Marella and beat Melina with her own leg. Those are the major takeaways I had from her run. Although she was also really attractive and one of the few good female wrestlers with WWE at that time.
You don't remember Glamarella?
Spent years with the company, multitine tag champ, multitine midcard champ... That's enough for WWEs HoF. Plus let's be honest, if the type of people in charge of WWE now are still in charge when he gets inducted, they would really want to put over that time he got fucked and beat up by Cena and Kane just to fuck with him one last time
Ryder isn’t going to the hall of fame, he’s a good guy and all, but let’s be serious. He’s not making it.
And I know, people will bring up Koko and whatever, but they made fun of this guy when he got over and did his internet champion stuff, he had his WM moment and he lost the title the next night on RAW
Regardless of whether you think he deserves it, I’m willing to bet anything he’s not going into the HOF anytime soon, if ever. It just won’t happen
Edge Heads deserve their spot
WWE won't be even remotely interested in him
...and he knows it
He absolutely doesn’t need WWE.
More like WWE doesn't need him, they stupidly fired talents better than him
No, he really doesn’t need them. His podcast and accompanied deals make him more money than wrestling for them ever did and he wouldn’t return to them because of their third party mandate.
Almost like it wasn't serious.
Lol, he’ll never lace up for the E again.
TBH i think the problem with people returning is not the money, but the Independence.
Wanna stream on twitch? sure thing. Podcasts? Nice idea! become a youtuber? Yes please!
still waiting for MJF to open an only fans which is just him flicking people off
I didn't realise it till now - but Cardona is 100% aiming for another WWE run.
The thing with this is E would definitely induct him at some point once they ran out of people to put on their HoF lol
the guy has proven his ability to "get over" in multiple ways at this point. he's a solid wrestler, is marketable, and can cut a promo. it truly blows my mind how shallow minded this company is that they couldn't come up with anything for him and Hawkins to do that was relevant.