T O P

I'm happy with our state and decisions including having SA instead of Perkz

I'm happy with our state and decisions including having SA instead of Perkz

Chips_Queso

Ive been pleased with SA but i think he has been inconsistent... which the same could be said for Perkz. Some games he legit looks like the worlds finalist we know and some games its pretty invisible impact. To be fair to him, some of that poor performance may have been due to the team not being on the same page. I think my ultimate judgement will come down after next year when in theory his contract is up. For me SA comes in as a cog to help get TSM back on track to success. As a support his impact isnt like that of a mid, but he should should be a catalyst for a young lost and our team fighting. Yes we made worlds last year, but i think everyone was a little shocked we did it in that manner. So for me the bar i hold is this year get the team cohesion together and go as far as we can. I believe at this point making worlds is no longer a fantasy but it should be an expectation with how we are performing. So if we make worlds great, then we evaluate where the team needs improvement... fix that and use year two as the big year to seize NA and bring TSM back to being great. Compared to preseason i thought 3/4 place was a realistic standings at the end of the year. So far we are right about in that spot, but pushing for 1/2 spot and having a good shot to hold that. Overall im cautiously happy.


i_like_fish_decks

I agree so much. I really hope this squad remains intact for at least another year regardless of how worlds goes. That said, if they make any changes it would have to be Lost. But I really hope he just improves and we keep him And I really hope spica is just our next bjerg. I hope he stays on TSM until he retires.


ORTMFM

I would like to see SA with a superstar ADC. TSM has the money to get whoever they want. Lost is just outclassed by nearly everyone in the league right now.


EvenEagle3051

I think this off-season get poe his green and import a super star adc what's people's thought on sa old teammate heungfang I think he's fa this coming summer.?


AuregaX

Poach an up and coming CN ADC with SA as his mentor please.


[deleted]

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Chips_Queso

I mean he has had games where he randomely like flashes in on a kill (i could probably find some highlights of) and again maybe its a team thing but it looks real sketchy. Also my expectation is our botlane would at least not be a liability. And right now they arent exactly a shining star for us. They have had their moments but when you get a guy like SA i would hope he could make Lost another Huangfeng.


EvenEagle3051

You can't pin lost problems on sa first off lost has gotten better but he isn't close to huengfang skill let's be honest plus lost is a lot older.


sta-nz

I mean, TSM WAS one of the teams that tried to go for Perkz. It’s just that C9 had a better offer (though of course I’m happy they didn’t get him).


JohrDinh

And the original plan was Doublelift/Swordart bot lane which was definitely a respectable move.


PleaseGildMe

Huni/Spica/Bjerg/Doublelift/SwordArt :—(


obeetwo2

Although it'd be so dope to see, Bjergs decision was at leastpartially made because he believes he can make a bigger impact as a coach. Although it sucks not seeing him on the rift, he's definitely a difference maker in the team


Forigma

Easily would sweep through 2021 both splits. Even with poe would be great. Really just need dl to guarantee a championship


Dietyzz

Not like DL still was at his prime when he stopped playing tho. I remember him forgetting to buy items and going back to lane more than once in some LCS games.


jnf005

we still have lost in our pocket if doublesword isn't working out, its just a shame that we didn't have a chance to see it.


xdemzx

Lost would've went to EG with the Huni trade


jnf005

my memory is a bit fuzzy about the off season, how did it work out to us having both Huni and Lost now?


mjlion13

TSM bought Huni for money, without any player included. Bjerg wanted Huni so much, and now after Poe's green card, the most reasonable move is going all out for import adc who's a big name


Myreque_BTW

Fuck it, *TSM Rekkles*


mfanter

DL wasn't in his prime, but still shit and carried on all NA bot lanes during playoffs after the terrible series early on. And that's with Biofrost as his support.


shivax4

Anyone knows if bjerg still plays soloQ?


lolswimmer

He still plays but on a secret account and mostly jungle according to doublelift


JohrDinh

That would be the one that gets outta groups, Bjergsen if you’re reading this please for the love of god lol


mfanter

Huni/Spica/Perkz/DL/anyone\_not\_biofrost would absolutely stomp NA imo


xSwankyB

God they’d be the best bot lane in NA If that was the case. Sigh.


KugaSenpai

Probably wouldn’t have been better than DL/Core tho.


FonyFish14

Idk, I think it would’ve been comparable due to the importance of dragon soul that didn’t exist in the DoubleJJ era. Core is really good mechanically and an excellent team fighter, but SA is an aggressive laner and engager. I think DoubleArt would’ve been even better at snowballing bot than DoubleJJ due to the linearity of dragons in the current meta. Would’ve been insane to see Spica on a team with 3 aggressive, proactive lanes too (Huni, Bjerg, DoubleArt). Definitely think that team would’ve done some real damage, and even had a chance internationally. Oh the what if’s ),:


DragonApps

Tbf any support in the top 6 teams could be the best bot lane in NA when paired with DL.


Riftwalker101

Where is the source that TSM tried to get Perkz wtf. I never recalled seeing that.


optovince

I honestly think both won these signings. Perkz a natural leader. SwordArt an ultimate team player.


EliteTeutonicNight

Who would’ve thought the real loser from all these madness would be G2 lol. Even Fnatic, who supposedly got the short end of the stick(Nisqy), is looking better than G2 with wide Bwipo jg.


Loose-Potential-3597

I was definitely expecting G2 to be weaker this year, their best chance was 2019 just like TSM in 2016.


KyroZi

Perkz was the real homie, if he hadn't gone to NA Swordart likely would've gotten flamed to oblivion with his 6mil contract and performing quite poorly until recently. Now, we have mr. $11 million looking like a bottom 2 mid laner pretty often and soaking up majority of the flame for SwordArt.


1mpri

Lets talk about this after playoffs...


Jakaoceviche

Agreed. I like the positivity and I love our current squad; I wouldn't trade SA for Perkz by any means, but we are still bo1. Playoffs is a whole different beast. Players like Perkz can turn it on come playoffs and completely turn these types of takes on their heads. Even though Perkz is getting a ton of criticism, he DID win the split on his first split in NA. So yeah let's wait till the end cause none of the top four teams should be disrespected in a Bo5. But win or lose in summer I'm still happy with PoE and SA who have given us a lot of wins throughout the season and at times some very good play. Like this squad feels WAY better to watch than the Mithy/Smoothie/Dardoch/Armao/Akaadian ones even though those had Bjerg.


AniviaKid32

Right? People were saying this exact same shit before playoffs last split and see how that turned out


Renegade1478

While I'm also happy with our situation, I think it's hard to tell how a player can do in different situations. Who knows how good perkz could have been under bjerg and tsm leadership. Maybe he would have been mvp of the split or he could have been worse than he is with C9. There are so many factors that go into player performance.


GarySanduchi

A team on the same page always trumps individual skill. I hope we stay together next year too.


EliteTeutonicNight

I like your optimism, that’s what being a fan is about. Personally I’ve come to like this roster and I think they’ve outperformed my expectations, and I’m pleased to see everyone signed at least until 2022, which means at the very least we get buyouts. If we can retain a resident POE(who I think has changed team every year in his career) and make maybe upgrades to adc and top should the opportunity arises, I’m optimistic for 2022. 2021 is always the rebuild year and it’s going well. Then after 2022 see if some of the young players in academy/amateur has developed well enough for the first team. And also maybe change Hauntzer and Cody next year since our academy players have more experience, and less veterans are needed. Honestly looks like good forward planning from TSM imo, which I like a lot. Big improvement over the chaotic 2020 season.


mjlion13

i don't think any team would go for Hauntzer and Cody at this point, or for really small fee, Hauntzer is like 26 years old, but maybe he could stay in some sort of coaching stuff, idk


EliteTeutonicNight

Cody maybe, Hauntzer probably not. But even if we just let them go to clear space for other prospects it wouldn’t be a big financial issue. Though of course keeping them is a viable option too.


mjlion13

I personally think Cody is overall better than Lost, but obv there wasn't ever a plan to sub him off for Cody, so I feel kinda sad for Cody Sun, 2 years ago he was top 3 adc in league and with Huni carried CG to the Worlds...he's 100% better than Raes and Fly's adc, maybe even Lost, idk.


DPSOnly

SA has a way better attitude.


Riftwalker101

> We are once again the powerhouse in terms of money We were always the powerhouse. There wasn't a point when we weren't the richest org in the west.


mfanter

Money considerations aside, I think you're absolutely wrong. This is purely my opinion, so don't get offended please... SwordArt, in my opinion, has been mediocre in NA. His first split, I don't think I can even give him the top 3 support, even top 4 is arguable considering his mechanical misplays, getting caught and bot generally losing lane. The only arguments for SwordArt are that he's a good shot-caller, brings an aggressive playstyle etc - but I didn't see any of that in Spring, it was a terrible split imo. This split is a bit better. As for Perkz, he ended up being the best mid laner in Spring - he absolutely carried C9 in playoffs. I wouldn't take his recent slump as evidence for his demise until he plays like shit in playoffs. Besides, a lot of the issues in C9 seem to my eyes happening from blabber inting half of the games for no reason, even at MSI I absolutely hated how blabber played.


Mascy

Im glad we got SA over Perkz (esp Perkz lately, he hasn't looked great in most games really..) altho everytime its brought up i can't help but feel a little sad we never got to see a SA-DL botlane. I know Lost is doing the best he can but sadly he's by far the least performing member and i think it severely hinders our playstyle since bot is never really dominant on its own in most games. If the PoE greencard thing happens he's gone for sure next split.


aquawarrior21

Don’t think he’s 100% gone, but yeah if we can’t make finals or worse, fail to reach Worlds, then yeah we need a change, and Lost is the one person that can be upgraded realistically (everyone else is top 3 in their position at least)


Killmepls402

I would like to see what would happen with the team, if we got a different adc


Vexxt

I think it may actually be harmful. ADC isnt in the greatest spot and playing through bot lane isnt the best win condition now (and may not be for a long time). He's at least as good as Kobbe imo, and a resident - the only AD who challenges that status is FBI and over many years they have shown to stand toe to toe. Unless we're talking about someone like Sneaky was, most other ADC's require resources and attention where Lost is quite stable in whatever situation. Also as a pairing with SA, its not going to be a smash lane smash game style, and id rather Spica work topside with Huni whos great at pressing leads.


Killmepls402

Of course! But i just grel like lost is our link atm, so i would just like to see if swapping adc would chance anything or not. Not an idea for changing our playstyle


FonyFish14

Honestly, the most underrated asset TSM has as a team is that going into the off-season, they have an import slot and 3.5 players that speak Mandarin. Doesn’t mean they will or should make changes (obviously the outcome of summer will determine that), but not enough people are bringing that up


BleachGummy

I think one of the biggest reason they green lighted swordart deal was that TSM already had an extensive Chinese based infrastructure in Peter Zhang, Spica, Lost and even Leena. No other LCS team could compete with us in that regard. Perkz would also be nice but it apparently was very competitive.


egozocker14

The disrespect is insane. Perkz actually proved his worth by winning the split, swordart didn't.


[deleted]

perkz just did what nisqy did but struggled harder to achieve it


egozocker14

Perkz did ist against a good team liquid. Nisqy did it vs a tsm with dsrdoch in the jgl and a team liquid which just got rid of dl and replaced him with a rookie adc. Also it's not like nisqy is a bad player, he is smurfing in fnatic right now so I dont even know what your point is?


[deleted]

okay let's give nisqy 11m he prove his worth already. stronger region, better performance, higher standings this split. sa deserve the 6m he prove his worth world finals, perkz? semfinals last year nah not good enuf for 11m standings is all that matters right, might as well give fudge and elyoya/armut the 11m as well he deserved it, new players, win split= proved worth


AniviaKid32

Bruh wait till playoffs are done before posting this shit lol inb4 perkz turns it on in playoffs again and we get knocked out in semis Like why do y'all have to be so premature, I can't till if this is copium overdose or just delusion lol


Jakaoceviche

This squad is very likeable, probably why. But yeah way too premature, especially the Perkz take. If he craps the bed in playoffs then we can repost this XD


aznanimedude

I'll reserve Judgement for Perkz until Playoffs. Dude seems to always literally just not give a fuck during the split but then just massively tryhard during playoffs. To give an example from another sport, it's like how in Boxing some people don't do much but then suddenly in the last 30 seconds of each round they rev up so that it's the last thing the judges remember to help sway opinion in their favor if the round was relatively close.


Coccaqqq

Wow, even as a TSM fan. I cannot possibly intake this huge amount of COPIUM. I understand where you are coming from, but the fact that you are using most out of competitive references to like our players, kinda says a lot about what they have been doing and their skills. Also, most of your references are very flawed, and it just looks like that you can't accept reality (this is a very common trait in this sub). Like, I believe our team is great, but if they really wanted to win, I am not sure they should go for the same 5 they have now.


ReliveWolf

I know that saying "copium" is currently fashionable. But, let's be honest here. I literally said we have a import slot for next year and that we have *strong basis*. Reading this you understand that I think they should go for the same 5? This just looks like straight misinterpretation. I mean, the reality is that we are top 2 rn and currently better than TL and C9. It's also reality that we have a domestic better performing mid laner than Perkz, that we are the new money powerhouse, that we have the best resident jungler, that we have SwordArt and the money to bring, for example, Huanfeng. If you think that's "very flawed" reference, maybe you are actually part of the very common trait of not accepting the truth here. No copium here, I'm genuinely happy with TSM regardless of winning summer or not. We have everything right for 2022.


Vaarkain

Same. I get tilted off the earth when they lose vs bottom tier teams but I still love the team. Huni has been invaluable this split, not only because he can play any style but he's able to impact the team positively, he seems to be in sync with Spica both on and off the rift. Spica has been just getting better and better. TSM jungler curse what? This guy is the best jg in NA up there with Closer, but being a resident is a massive win. PoE gets some hate because he can't really play anything that isn't mages, but in his defense... If he can make Ahri work I believe it doesn't matter. There's no better control mage player in NA rn. I feel like Lost has stagnated a bit this split. Meta is definitely not on his side and well, as you put it, we'll have both the cash and the import slot in case we need it. I think people seriously underestimate the influence on SA on the team. We've seen it on a lot of wins and losses as well. But I clearly remember the days when we just rolled over and died slowly in games. I'd much rather have this new style where we maybe lose harder and faster but for sure that playstyle has won us some losing games as well...


AniviaKid32

>the reality is that we are top 2 rn Are we? We just lost to 100T, and EG are on a hot streak where they've only lost one game (and beat us in our most recent matchup too). So no, current form I definitely have those 2 teams above us. I would put GGS in the mix too, yes we beat them recently but it was a pretty close game and their versatility will come in handy for best of 5s if they make it in. Unless you're using the standings to make that claim rather than current form which is just flawed >It's also reality that we have a domestic better performing mid laner than Perkz In regular season. This was the case before playoffs last split too. We all saw how playoffs went. These statements are so premature when you make them before playoffs >that we have SwordArt I don't know about you but I'm not convinced by him so far. I don't know if it's because of Lost but he's just so inconsistent / coinflippy. This team overall hasn't improved at all since spring, C9 and TL getting worse will make it seem otherwise but other teams got better. Definitely sounds like copium to me.


Coccaqqq

We might not have the import slot for next year, or at least at the start, and I am not sure that another Abbedagge situation will happen. >I mean, the reality is that we are top 2 rn and currently better than TL and C9. It's also reality that we have a domestic better performing mid laner than Perkz, that we are the new money powerhouse, that we have the best resident jungler, that we have SwordArt and the money to bring, for example, Huanfeng None of this is actually true tho, or doesn't represent the reality of the situation. POE is not NA just yet, and he might not be till summer next year. Even tho we are 'better' than those teams right now, it doesn't tell me much, because they are playing pretty bad right now. The whole Top 5 in NA is pretty inconsistent, and I am not ready to say that TSM is going to win, as well as make it to worlds. And then the usual name-throwing thing just because we have money, it really doesn't tell me anything, it's just fabled. If you build the roster you have right now, you really should not look at 2022. I can assure you, nobody at TSM is going to be happy if we don't win or we don't make it to worlds, because this roster was not built to develop, but to win.


PhysicsIsSpicyMath

Agreed. Someone has to go except Spica PoE and kinda huni.


Flytanx

Well it's lost. I mean its probably as easy fix. Poe gets citizenship and we import an adc. Of course this is assuming the problem is lost and not sword art (which the team would know anyways). Still seems pretty obvious watching that lost is somewhat limited with his champ pool but who knows. Doubt we don't make changes regardless of how we finish since we should have an import slot open anyways and with more money


[deleted]

maybe for worlds quaterfinals but the other competition in NA is not that far away from current tsm if at all, they can def win the whole thing actually


iamperplexing

100t and to a lesser extent EG look better than TSM right now. 100T should win it they have been the most consistent, have clean games and abbe is the best midlaner in NA currently. He has multiple playstyles and a decent champ pool.


seanffy

We really can’t judge this move yet until they legitimately tries to get an good import adc. It was never meant for SA to pair with Lost. Uzi 2022 ….. 😂😂😂


luciusoso

I'm happy with the players on the roster, what i'm not happy at all is with how much they've improved through out the year as a team. I was expecting us to be a MUCH, MUCH better/decisive team by this point, and tbh i don't have much hope for us at the international stage.


SplitPushingyourmom

Moral of the story, stop spending millions on imports that have already hit their ultimate peaks in their careers. The LCS is so bad because even the top teams lack cohesion. Nobody knows how they want to play as a team. When you throw together a bunch of players that learned the game differently, it is going to be chaotic and sloppy. Scout and develop talent so they can grow into a system together. I already see people in this thread saying how they can’t wait to import another player. NA will NEVER learn and will continue to get shitstomped internationally.


Reynaex

Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe players are granted residency anymore. The Old Guard of Bjerg, Impact, Santorin etc. got grandfathered in when they changed the rules


Chips_Queso

You have to get a greencard to get residency now i believe (POE was/is going for that)


Reynaex

I knew you could if you because a citizen but I didnt know POE was going for that


Shinashu

Yeah POE has been tryin for for some time.


Chips_Queso

I wish i could find you the source but it may have been POE himself but i recall the discussion about that. I think it may have been a reason for his signing with us since him getting a greencard opens up a resident spot. Also he has been here for a while at this point so it follows that he probably likes living here. Its possible that has changed due to the pandemic or any other reason but when we signed him i remember reading about it.


Jedclark

If you get a green card, you are considered a resident NA player and no longer count as an import.


justaredditmonkey

Players can get residency if they obtain a green card.


bonkmultipletimes

Yeah I think G2 perkz 2019 would make mince meat of NA and Poe but C9 perkz 2021 is something else lol


[deleted]

g2 perkz 2019 got smacked by lwx, his yasuo got kited so hard in finals lol look at the end of game 2 the guy was praying


ReliveWolf

G2 Perkz 2019 is still way worse than Chovy, who didn't made mince meat of PoE and went 1-1 against him. PoE had FQ at his side, Chovy had DRX.


MartoSan

We don't need either and we paid wayy too much money for SA imo


irishfury

Dont care what anyone says he has been great this year. His vision control in spring was nuts. Not as strong in summer but he sacrificed that for lane. His roaming has been nuts. And many of his bad plays would be called great plays if the team followed up. I think SA giant leap the lately is communication is getting better. Also speaking with speaking in a diff language you can tell done wonders. Go back watch this weeks games they where on same page roaming 2gther like montsters.


Syncron72

Lmao I’ll take the western goat perkz over SA any day. Perkz will win an org a championship, has more brand value and costs less( per year). SA was way to expensive and ur getting him years after his peak as a mechanical player for “shot calling “ but TSM has proven that shotcollers haven’t worked out ever. Yellow star, Mithy, smoothie. When has TSM ever had good macro ??


OnceWasGreen

Didn't Perkz cost twice as much as SwordArt though?


Syncron72

My bad, messed up the math. They cost around the same If it’s 11 mill/ 3 years and 6 mil over 2 with perkz being slightly more expensive. Still take perkz any day over SA


sanjiviyer

Yea counting Perkz out b4 playoffs feels like this gonna age badly. As hard as it may seem he’s inting in regular season, there’s a reason the guy won so many championships in EU.


JIcsy

I would have waited to make this post, at the end if you look Perkz came here and won Spring Split, with Tsm not even getting 2nd. If Tsm wins summer and goes to world, and may be gets a strong performance as well I would be pretty happy and agreeing with this post. But don't want to jiinx it!


-Acerin

I am not happy with either. SA is not worth what he is paid. Dude is major ass.


King_Fluffaluff

You're everywhere hating on SA. Get a hobby, touch some grass, just do something.


SoulSS_-

Tsm would be able to push perkz back to his EU peak levels


lloydykins

I'd rather have SA over some guy who just can't accept the fact that he's going bald and demands to wear a hat on stage to cover it up. The backstory about vision and lights and yada yada. Riot just didn't want him to cover his face in game because it's bad for PR. Basically we don't need that shit.