T O P
[deleted]

[удалено]


Specialist-Opening-2

Read the whole thing with JK Rowling on twitter. People are shitting on her for saying sex matters. And some of the iconic definitions they are trying to push instead of "adult human female" are "an individual whose cognitive processes align with those of women".


Shumaka12

JK Rowling is being criticized for more than just saying that “Sex matters” or that “sex exists”. She has publicly supported some extremely transphobic people and said some extremely transphobic things.


e22ddie46

I have some serious issues with some of Rowling's stuff, but dear lord, I do wonder how much entire facets of society can be expected to change in like a five year window.


fathercountry

If you're confused congratulations you took more than a second to think about this. This is what those "fascist" right-wingers have been saying for the past five + years. If you took a second to listen to them this view would not appear alien to you.


MowieWauii

The quotes around fascist are what really tickled me, lol.


lomoliving

They have also said a lot of other very nasty stuff against the lbgtq+ community. Hard to take anything seriously


YenneferofWangerberg

I agree and I always feel like a terrible person for saying it. Didn’t women go through a whole movement to stop being defined by our clothes and interests and mannerisms? And now that’s only what being a woman is? Clearly we can’t define ourselves by our body parts as that’s not inclusive enough.


Aloe_Frog

I agree. I’m not sure if I’m just getting old or what but the labeling is getting crazy. When I was a teen I felt embraced by the community and didn’t feel pressure to label myself as a lesbian or as bisexual or anything because I was figuring it out. Now it seems like we have to slap a label on everyone all the time.


Super-Branz-Gang

You’re not getting old, it’s just getting really, really stupid.


poisoned_bubbletea

I don’t have much to say here other than I fully agree as a fellow cis lesbian. I’ve been in the fight in protests and online for a while but it is exhausting.


User5228

I bet you're seen as the bad guy too.


bigPUNnbigFUN

watch it now


varralan

Fellow cis lesbian here 👋 I've been saying this since this whole craze started. I thought I was allowed to not like dick? The "T" doesn't even fit in with the rest of the acronym. LGB are sexual orientations, T is anything but.


QueenTzahra

Hard agree. We had to fight so hard to prove that women are more than their anatomy and stereotypes, “there’s more than one way to be a woman” was such a helpful lesson for me to learn growing up. Now we seem to be going backwards.


ceilingtiles______

I guess the idea is that if there’s more than one way to be a woman, and in fact infinitely many, then what is womanhood? It’s a collection of ideas about womanhood that differs from person to person. So the whole gender stuff is an extension of that line of thought, in part. I also think sexuality is more fluid than we like to admit, and WAY more based on gender expression and appearance (femininity, masculinity, etc), and less based on how that person identifies, than we like to admit. That’s how you get people who say “gender doesn’t exist but i’m also a lesbian”


Despexco

Why is it going backwards?


CockRoulette007

A good example is "birthing person" to describe people who have/can give birth. Especially with the whole abortion debate, it's a constant struggle to stress that were not walking incubators, get reduce ourselves to such for the sake of inclusivity.


Despexco

How does “birthing person” reduce woman’s rights? Wouldn’t linking “birthing person” with “woman” make the view that woman are walking incubators worse? Like… not all woman give birth, so using the word woman to define people who do is bad, right? It adds the implication that woman means “person who gives birth” which is incorrect and regressive.


yueshenn

Read the main post


Despexco

I did. I still don’t understand.


cabt_find_a_username

The way I see gender is that you can be however you feel the most comfortable as. I can't help assuming someone is a certain gender based on how they look, but if they correct me I'm going to respect them.


Valor_52

Good way of putting it! We can make assumptions based off of what we know (looks, traditionally masculine or feminine features or clothing) but correct ourselves once given more knowledge


3556rayon78

One thing that always confused me was that in attempt to reject labels/stuffing people into boxes, the movement has created more labels and boxes of identity than I've ever seen. Be whoever u wanna be


teapartyon

I admit, I am cis, and I've always wanted to ask but been too afraid to, someone AFAB who doesn't identify as female what to them makes a woman a woman, and what about them makes them not a woman. And not with the intention of debating and arguing their gender identity, I just genuinely want to know. But ie. I have a friend who is NB afab and exclusively attracted to cis-gendered men. So I feel in their mind, logically there are things to them that makes a woman a woman, a man a man, and then everyone in between must lack or have traits and characteristics that the binary ends of the gender spectrum do or don't have. And then there comes the issue of feminism which we all fight for, breaking down the gender roles and stereotypes, so people don't have to be tied to said roles and stereotypes. So in essence, women can embrace more masculine or neutral traits, and men can embrace more feminine and neutral traits. I did ask this question to my one friend and what they said, not to sound disrespectful, essentially they did not identify and associate with the gender roles, expectations, and stereotypes of being a woman. Yet... they're also a feminist and agree that we need to break down those roles and expectations for women (and men) while... also... confirming that's how they differentiate women from the rest of the gender spectrum...? So I admittedly have wondered if in some cases, someone who identifies as nb actually just doesn't want to be tied to the social definition, roles, and stereotypical characteristics of the gender they were assigned at birth. I fully expect to get downvotes for this curiosity. And I know that gender is fluid and a spectrum and that could simply be the answer.


terrakeor

god finally someone said it here


Hammer_Haunt

Straight people have their own irritable qualities so I'm not riding a high horse. But I am glad I'm not queer specifically for the exhausting need to label and simultaneously ignore or destroy labels. That's the way it looks to me anyway. Again I'm not better than any queer people and I understand that none of us exist as a monolith. But God damn it just looks like a lot of work when I look at the big picture I've recieved. My old roommate who was a cis gay man used to talk about this sometimes. He was just a "regular" guy who was gay and sometimes went to queer events or meetings or whatever and he pretty much said the same thing.


dirtysyncs

Completely agree. It's honestly pushed me away from the queer community. I can't stand where the ideology is going, and how elitist & intolerant the views have become.


itsirrelevant

Oh my God I agree completely and cannot articulate this without sounding like I'm not "woke" because I'm not really part of the community. I hate how we're doubling down on socialization and reinforcing gender norms. I'm a feminist and am so happy to have been moving away from women having to be a certain way, but now it's like we're swinging all the way back. I feel my humanity being removed with every push of the definition of femininity.


DangitKaisen

Also they can't define sexuality anymore either. Lesbian is now longer about homosexual women, it's "non men loving non men." Like how do they not see how misogynistic that is? Holy shit


LM1120

My favorite is "non-binary queer" How can you be gay if you're not male or female?


Aggravating_Chair780

But surely if someone is non-binary then they cannot be straight? Because they are neither men attracted to women or women to men?


Concrete_Grapes

queer is the umbrella term and can include asexuals.. so many non-binary asexual could say that of themselves? Makes perfect sense to me in that context.


shadowfaj

The problem its also a very offensive term for many lgbt ppl and a term that for some is the only identity for others


satisfiedjelly

It’s been reclaimed and it is a very good umbrella term. People don’t use it as a slur and haven’t for years


ComplicatedCasserole

...queer doesn't just mean gay


LM1120

queer /kwir/ adjective 1.strange; odd. 2. OFTEN OFFENSIVE (of a person) homosexual. 🤷🏿‍♂️


Affectionate-Aside39

if you took the split second it takes to click the “more definitions” button, you’d have seen this: • denoting or relating to a sexual or gender identity that does not correspond to established ideas of sexuality and gender, especially heterosexual norms. "queer geek culture has featured gay themes since the 1980s" queer *used to be* a slur across the board, but its been reclaimed. its still *used* as a slur by some people, but a queer person calling themselves queer is not derogatory, its descritive


preraphaedyke

This term was reclaimed in the 70s and 80s. None of our identity labels haven’t been reclaimed.


ComplicatedCasserole

Did you just make up a dictionary definition to try to prove your point? I'm sorry- I'm not sure I get it


D3taco

its literaly the first thing when you google queer


LM1120

Yup. All I did was Google "what does queer mean?"


ComplicatedCasserole

Queer is an umbrella term for people who are not heterosexual or are not cisgender. I suppose I'm simply not used to the top result on Google being the top of academic research :/


LM1120

Maybe it's that people make up definitions for terms that have already been defined for decades..


ComplicatedCasserole

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to imply. Could you maybe explain please?


Valor_52

How do you not understand? They’re saying that Queer is already defined to mean homosexual, but people are changing it to be an umbrella term. Not that hard to understand


galaxyveined

"if someone is saying something offensive as a joke, ask them to explain it again. and again. and again. it will make them uncomfortable, and they'll stop" i think this is the tactic they're trying to use, but it's just, backfiring horribly...


LM1120

It is if you're being intentionally obtuse lol don't even waste your time on them.


LaHawks

They're saying that there's the dictionary definition then there's the definition that you decided to make up and use.


LM1120

Nope. Google. Why would I make something up for the likes of *you*, internet stranger? Don't flatter yourself.


UndendingGloom

This is hilarious


Rhyen-

I just saw someone identify as a "non-binary lesbian"


BxGyrl416

Yeah, lesbian = woman. If you’re not a woman, how can you be a lesbian?


[deleted]

[удалено]


lomoliving

That logic doesn't make sense. So since they are two non-men, they are lesbians. But technically they are also non-women so are they also gay?


SleepyCapricorn20

Often people include those who are non-binary or in general non-men in lesbian identities. That doesnt mean every lesbian likes non-binary people, but some do or are non-binary themselves and still align with a lesbian identity


Rhyen-

That's what I thought too. Turns out if a non binary person relates to womanhood in some way then they can be lesbian too.


LM1120

They make up terms that apparently have definitions and then use them incorrectly. Make it make sense.


Ishi-Elin

Because they are still male or female


fluffy-metal-kitten

I think queer might be more fitting since gay means "men into men" and lesbian "women into women" queer could just be "hey I got a vagina and I just so happen to people that also have vaginas" idk that's how it think it means. I'm bisexual and nonbinary, but I usually just say I'm queer half the time and people usually just accept it 🤷‍♀️


GardeniaPhoenix

Queer doesn't necessarily mean gay. If you're in the LGBT, you can be defined as queer.


BxGyrl416

I’ve pondered this many times and can tell you I still don’t have an answer. If a woman and a man can be anything under the sun and don’t adhere to just one definition, how can one “know” they are a man or a woman? And what’s non-binary if you can be anything as both a man or woman? If you come up with an answer, let me know.


The_Infamous_Venom

Oh shit…you spoke the truth. Brace yourself.


mrberdman

Omg you are SO. RIGHT. I’m a gay man myself and I’m all for breaking away from gender norms, but why do we need to keep creating labels? The point is to get rid of labeling, not just replacing old labels with new ones. For instance if a biological male identifies as a woman what does that mean? It probably means that they feel, think and behave like an average woman does. But this is based on the very idea that women are a certain way, because otherwise how are they a woman just because they are these ways? All that being said, people having different gender identities doesn’t even bother me. What bothers me is if anyone dares pointing out the glaringly obvious circular logic especially within the lgbt+ community, they’re instantly labeled patriarchal and an enemy, when in reality they probably just aren’t so estranged to the idea of critical thinking


Comprehensive_Eye805

Im straight man but my gay friends tell me lgbt is a toxic community all i can say is be you, define you and dont let others lable you the way they demand it should be rather define yourself and present yourself just be happy ya know. To me all these new labels and identity is just away for them to feel unique and special they have nothing going for them.


xxFormorixx

True, you are attracted to what ever attracts you, which is more than gender or sex. I'm a cis straight male, I don't find all cis straight women attractive. It's the same for everyone. From what I can see there is too much gate keeping and not enough respect.


Despexco

I’m also a straight man, and I’m tired of having to justify that to people just because my birth certificate has an F on it. I don’t ask for everyone to bow down before my gender identity, but I do ask that people who know about it give me basic respect. I’m not weird or revolutionary, I’m just a guy, living his life who happens to be a little different from most guys. Presentation doesn’t really have anything to do with it either. I can’t be a masculine woman because I’m not a woman. Dressing masculinely is a stereotype of men, that while I happen to fall into, doesn’t define manhood. It would be like someone telling a butch lesbian, “I don’t understand why can’t you just be a masculine straight woman.” She can’t because she’s simply not straight.


Comprehensive_Eye805

See and your situation i get and respect, not everyone feels the way theyre born but lgbt is toxic lol i respect you for who you are period. But theres some things that i cant and wont agree on these new weird terms.


Direness9

You were so close to the point, and then you lost it in the second half.


Comprehensive_Eye805

Why cause i disagree about someone identifying as a helicopter?


bookshelfie

100% agree. Further, arguments that genitalia dint matter, and thus, should not be an equation in dating. Wtf! If they don’t matter, why are they removing or adding parts of their body? Also, saying IS a bout boundaries and preferences. I dating is about having an elimination pool, to focus on finding what you do like/want/need.


imyourzer0

Maybe I'm off-base here, but my best guess is that sexuality is less about gender and more about biology. You might be bisexual, but the sexes you're attracted to are still binary, whatever the gender of the person attached to them. Sexually speaking, you have two choices: pensises and/or vaginas. Romantically, you might get on well with any number of people regardless of their genitals. So I think this is just another case of gender and sex being entwined, so that while we may not have gender preferences in our partners, we still only have fundamentally two kinds of genitals to fool around with.


advstra

This is exactly why I stay away from queer spaces as a bisexual woman. The popular accepted ideas just do not make sense to me and I honestly don't like the twitter-influenced personality style most have. Edit: After thinking a while this is the framework I've decided to use for myself. There is sex, and there is gender. Sex is biological sex. Gender is social and is more of a collection of what society deems as feminine or masculine, it's your choice whether you want to subscribe to this or not. I personally find it backwards to subscribe to it. If you do not, you can just identify by your sex and not give a shit about gender, or you can identify as non-binary (I think nb is what used to be agender? Not sure though). I'm personally on the "I identify as my sex but don't really care about gender" side of things. To me, "woman" and "man" are labels of sex, a more polite way of saying female and male. Some people also think gender is automatically matched with sex (women should be feminine, men should be masculine) which is basically backwards and where sexism stems from. These people also use "woman" and "man". I personally feel like a lot of the core belief stems from people thinking "woman" = "feminine" and "man" = "masculine" and so they're basically saying they can be (biologically) male but are a woman because they're feminine. I get where they're coming from and I respect that, I have a vagina and I've never been feminine, but it genuinely looks like they're just using words wrong to me, because no one outside of LGBT spaces actually uses man and woman this way unless they think people have to subscribe to gender norms. Which is why you guys get accused of having bigoted beliefs, because that's the narrative you're building your own perspective on. In short: Man/woman = (biological) Man/woman = (sociological) Two different definitions. Why use it in the sociological sense when "feminine" and "masculine" are already there though? In fact why even keep the sociological idea altogether? Why label random things as feminine or masculine? So now all the words have different meanings to different people and some people who can't think on a systematic basis just keep switching between different definitions at this point and so their reasoning doesn't make sense. And this is exactly why words are supposed to have definitions and can't, in fact, be "whatever that person decided to be" literally how are we supposed to communicate if we don't have an agreed upon meaning mapped onto specific sounds. Do you understand how language works? I'm willing to discuss these.


Different_Avocado501

My only opinion here is that I don't give a shit, mainly because that's the only way people who I don't want around me automatically filter themselves out of the ones I can get along with.


mercurypuppy

Male or female has nothing to do with identity. It's biology. Literal organs. Gender is binary, gender identity (in my opinion) is the thing over which there can be debate. As in the gender one feels like they are and chooses to present as and might want to transition to. If it weren't binary and biological (can't believe we have to defend literal facts) there would be no need to transition if your biological gender doesn't represent who you are. Yes, sexuality is a spectrum but gender/sex is not with exception of rare occasions where a person is biologically intersex in which case they can choose to remain as they are or make changes towards the gender identity they are comfortable with. There is no need to invalidate biology in order to defend people's right to present as they choose. You can be male but you don't feel either gender identities accurately represent you and that's okay. But don't tell me your biological gender ceases to exist. You can present in whatever way you choose and that is perfectly okay and is your basic human right or you can choose to transition to the gender that represents your identity and that's great. You can fight to change the rules assigned by society to your gender and that's fucking awesome but you don't get to do that by saying it doesn't exist. Biology and medical facts are not the enemy here.


Fresh_Silk

I’ve voiced this as a straight cis white man and people have tried to straight up cancel me lol. Whaterugonnado


Despexco

People try to cancel you because you’re asking people to make an argument for why their identities are real and not regressive. Do you not understand how that attacks a persons very core? What if I told you that, sometimes there are cis men who look enough like woman, that you might be accidentally attracted to them, and then said, “see you’re not actually straight, insisting that feminine looking people are woman is a regressive stereotype and you have internalized queer phobia. Admit you’re actually bi, bigot, because you can’t prove 100% that you’re attracted to female people and you’ve never found a male attractive”


UndendingGloom

I'm glad I don't have to deal with these issues, really I am. I don't know what to say to you OP. I guess stuff has to turn to shit first so it can be molded back into something better? I feel like we are still on the slide into shit at this point though.


Despexco

I wish I had to deal with OPs problems. I’ve literally been told multiple times that I’m delusional for saying I exist.


Stryker_27

Congratulations for realising wokists are absolutely nonsensical in their reasoning (if it can be given that name). They mistake being a woman, which is a physiological thing, with being feminine which is a social/psychological thing. One is basically your body and brain being biologically female, while the other is displaying social traits typical of female individuals. Men can be feminine, women can be masculine too, even though it's most often the other way around. So they contradict themselves because they don't want women to be defined only by stereotypical feminine traits cuz that would be "sexist", but they don't wanna give a more scientific definition of women either because it's "transphobic" So as you said, by refusing to give any proper defining criteria to what is a woman, they themselves render obsolete their sexualities based on binary genders. Cognitive dissonance hits record levels within these people. Long story short, use your brain and common sense, and don't buy into these people rethorics. You'll live happier


Despexco

I’m a man. I was born female, but I’m a man. I’m not a man because I’m masculine. I know I can be extremely masculine and be a woman. The two concepts may be related, but they are very much not the same. Why? Let’s talk about stereotypes for a second. Being masculine is a stereotype of men. You know what else it used to be a stereotype of? Lesbians. So… let’s say we have a butch lesbian, a woman who happens to be masculine and also like women. What if you told her, “why can’t you just be a masculine straight woman? Why do you have to like woman? By simply existing as a masculine lesbian, YOU are regressing woman’s rights, by promoting the stereotype that masculine woman have to like woman.”


Alef_7

You are tired of all the stupid bullshit around the pronouns and the genders, but you are just starting to realize it little by little.


Despexco

I agree. Fusing about gender and pronouns is exhausting bullshit. Just accept people for who they are and do you’re best to respect them, including men, like me, who happen to have an F on our birth certificate.


Specialist-Opening-2

It's also pretty dumb, egotistical and entitled to assume that your inner gender identity has any kind of effect on the sexuality of people attracted to you. If a lesbian is attracted to you and you're afab, it's kinda weird to try to force her out of the lesbian identity cause you id as something else than a woman.


ZellRell

Radical opinion here but i feel that the non binary movement is destroying the LGBTQ movement.


cuplosis

You people try to make life to complicated.


Moose908H

Can you explain what a cis lesbian is?


Ren_tho

Someone who was born a female and identifies as a woman (the cis part) who is attracted to other women


howdypartners55

Cis means they were born a female, and a lesbian means they are into women not men. So OP is a woman that was born a woman that likes women


Moose908H

What's the difference between cis lesbian and a regular lesbian? Why when speaking did she say cis lesbian/not just say lesbian?


babeyslut

absolutely based


fishys_1

I'm confused but on board I think.


bbozzie

Just kids carving out their own identity. Once upon a time, I was goth, or punk, or a jock or a nerd or whatever… nowadays, kids need more ways to slice it to feel like an individual. A lot of group affirmation in this space. Mostly based on a projection of their insecurity in my estimation.


RainInTheWoods

Well said.


MuleBeans

I’m so glad you said it. I couldn’t agree more.


dorisfrench

Well if you want to get technical only someone with the 2 XX chromosomes is actually a woman.


DeusWombat

I feel like women in general get the shorter end of the stick these days. Still having to fight for equality in a patriarchal society while being the whipping horse for the lgbtq community. *Especially* lesbians.


KingHalfrican702

Ooooof the OP is gonna trigger some folks but I’m here for it…somebody make it make sense


marty_76

Women have two x chromosomes, men have an x & a y chromosome. That is what defines a man and a woman.


Tathanor

This is one of my grievances with the left (I've been liberal my whole life). They contradict each other with these paradoxical beliefs. It's labels with no responsibility. They get angry when you disagree with them because they've removed any form of individual identity and if you're not one of them, you're evil. It's just bigotry with extra steps in my opinion. Own your own identity and anyone who tries to put you down for that can go fuck themselves.


goldenbee123

Another lesbian here- you’re not alone. I wish I knew more people like us in real life, it is a very isolating time to be a lesbian


CrusaD4R

glad someone said it


Lakeof-Positivity

Agree with OP: This really grinds my gears. People who would like the freedom to choose what they want to be by implying rules on how they should be, I'm considering using the below method of identifying people. Ask people their biological sex rather than they're gender. They can identify as whatever they wish but biologically speaking there are two prominent sexes, The Male sex and Female Sex which are defined by chromosomes. XY chromosome Male. Born with male genitals XX chromosome Female. Born with female genitals Obviously there are exceptions in regards to those born with both or hormonal imbalances or an extra chromosome. But there are two sexes male and female from a biological point of view. Probably going to get some hate for this, this was not meant to offend anyone but this is just how it is. You never see a male dog identify as a female dog. Biological sex in terms of male and female states which role is played in reproduction. In simplest of terms: If a partnership of two people, one with functioning male genitals and one with with functioning female genitals. And through natural conception a child is now carried inside of the womb of the person with female genitals. The one carrying the baby is female and the one that put it there is male. Regardless of how you feel those are your biological sex roles and that's how human biology works.


DangitKaisen

Do you have a penis or a vagina?


Lakeof-Positivity

How is that relevant to the comment?


DangitKaisen

> Ask people their biological sex rather than their gender I'm just asking


Lakeof-Positivity

Wait no sorry I went on the defensive there hahaha, yes that is the question in its best form 😂😂


alborigano

Aeon published a fan-tas-tic piece on the subject. Is it permitted to post links? Edit: [Link](https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison)


seriouslyreddit_wtf

Do it!


tshirtbag

You can’t tell a persons gender just by looking at them. It’s true. If you’re only attracted to cis women just say that, I think it’s pretty fair game if that’s what you’re getting at. I just use the term queer and that covers it enough for me. I ID with lesbian, but that doesn’t mean im attracted to all women. Which is also fair game.


lottienonchalant

The dictionary definition of queer is weird (unusual, not like most) These days the majority of people are in the LBGTQ community so technically, it's now queer to be straight. Idk man, it's all confusing to me. I always identified as bisexual because I like men and woman (bi means 2 - male and female) but apparently now that's wrong. Bi can mean all but is still different to pansexual (pan means all) So now bi equals more than two? And I guess my sexuality doesn't exist anymore because I only like manly men and girly girls? So fuck logic. Idk why people are obsessed with labels nowadays, I respect anybody who is unapologetically themselves. Pushing labels seems so pointless to me.


Inviction_

People just need to stop forcing their views on others. If you're a biological male, and you think you're a woman, I can respect your opinion. The issue I have is when I have to play along. I don't think you're a woman, and you don't respect my opinion. It gets forced onto us socially because we see facts, and we look like bad people for it. It gets forced on us legally, with bathroom laws, laws that prohibit using the wrong pronouns, the 20 different gender options on paperwork. Enough is enough. If you want to believe you're a different gender than what you are, keep it to yourself. Stop trying to make the other 95% of the population bend to your will. The other thing that bothers me, is that it's completely against science, facts, and the truth. Why are we trying to bend science to conform to false opinion based claims? It's absolutely nuts to try to turn feelings into facts. It's not up for debate, you can't change my mind. I won't even budge, and I don't care if it's downvoted to oblivion. If at least one other person sees this and agrees, then it's worth it


Despexco

Well I also wear mens clothes, have a stereotypical mens cut, and I was born female, but I’m a straight guy. I’m sick of having to justify my existence to people like you. We’re different and that’s okay, you can be a woman and like mens stuff. Imagine for just a moment if homophobes starting saying similar things about you. That you needed to provide an argument for why your homosexuality is valid, and not regressive stereotypes. “You can be straight and present masculinely, I don’t understand why you need to call yourself lesbian”. It’s ridiculous. The mens clothes isn’t what makes you lesbian, it’s who you’re attracted to. Just like for me, my gender identity is what makes me a man. You may not understand it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not real.


GeorgeThe13th

A man has a penis, a woman has a vagina. If you want to identify as a pineapple, go ahead but if I find out you have a p or a v, I'm gonna call you what God gave you. If you're a man identifying as a woman, or woman identifying as a man, I'll certainly humor that, but that's where I personally draw the line. This lgbtqwertyuiooasfghj has gotten a little out of hand, imo, and I understand the point of diversity but sometimes it's plain ridiculous.


Dutch_Rayan

Why are you so obsessed with other people genitals?


GeorgeThe13th

It is stated in my post. It's not an obsession. You're a dude if you have a d. You're a chick if you have a v. Not rocket science.


newphonewhot

I have no idea who you are hanging out with, but none of the queers I know are saying being a woman depends on your clothes. FWIW there are lots of us who don't feel we have binary sexualities and/or gender; some feel like lesbian is still the most accurate term for themselves due to lived experiences and some don't. None of them are trying to force a definition on anyone else. Whether intentionally or nothing, you come across as a TERF.


[deleted]

I think you need to stop following jk Rowling on Twitter and go for a walk lol


Silvertheprophecy

OP is right? And she doesn't even mention JK Rowling in the post?


BxGyrl416

You sound brainwashed and unoriginal.


NowYouSashimi

Omfg underrated comment right here lol


alborigano

Underrated for a reason yeah…


NowYouSashimi

Terfs gonna terf


BxGyrl416

Asking a question is being a TERF?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


Despexco

What is a lesbian, then? What if a lesbian finds a man who looks like a woman and finds him attractive? Is she still a lesbian because she found one exception? Of fucking course she is. It isn’t a precise technical term, it’s a social definition for woman who are attracted to woman. I guarantee that there are very few lesbians who have been attracted to 100% woman, most probably are closer to 99.99% without even realizing it. So, where do we draw the line, 99%, 90%, 80%? You don’t get to decide that, an individual lesbian does. Woman is the same. It’s a social definition that aligns with people we sort into the category female (who all have many shared traits, but no singular common one), but there are some outliers. You don’t get to decide what’s woman enough to be a woman. The individual woman does. You can disagree all you want, but that doesn’t mean that person isn’t entitled to their identity. It doesn’t hurt you at all.


sk1nsuit-

by the way you’re speaking etc you seem to be in your 20s-30s, and you can’t figure any of this out? my 60 year old grandma can grasp the concepts. little children can. it is PURE ignorance at this point if you’re not educated, and NO ONE owes you an explanation etc, how about instead of being transphobic you take it upon yourself to do some research.


buffalograss876

I like that this didn’t answer the question at all


stork3585

Non binariesplaining


alborigano

How transphobic of you. /s


Stryker_27

As they said, they are too above us plebeians to owe us any explanation. Reality: They don't have a clue themselves what they are talking about.


Hammer_Haunt

Feel free to provide this fabled research that everyone on the internet seems to have. At least conspiracy theorists will pull a fucking youtube video out of their ass. But all I ever hear from people who speak like you is something about not giving out free labor but a promise that googling will lead me to information that validates your opinion.


ArbiterTwoSwords

Why can’t u explain it if you’re so smart


alborigano

Because they don’t have time to educate people on the internet. They do, however, have time arguing that people are too dumb and unworthy of being educated on the internet. They’re just “venting” you see.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Consistent_Buffalo_8

Don't bother with them. I've argued with them before and they're hopeless.


LM1120

>little children can. If you're talking about sex or sexuality to children, you're robbing a child of their innocence and therefore are a predator. There is no gray area.


sk1nsuit-

ask any psychologist, talking to a kid about gayness etc DOES NOT have ANY influence on how they decide their sexuality lol


LM1120

>on how they decide their sexuality lol So sexuality is a choice, then?


sk1nsuit-

are you that slow? can’t use that brain a little harder? not a choice, decide as in find who they are and discover. my bad i definitely should’ve explained that one more in depth for your incompetent self!!


LM1120

You said it, I just asked for clarification. The rules change constantly, apparently so how should I know?


sk1nsuit-

the cis male world amazes me so much. you guys are such interesting yet dumb creatures 😁


LM1120

Wow. I love that "hate speech" is a one way street now, btw. Misandry is ok, but don't *dare* ask the rainbow mafia questions they don't like. Classic.


Ariesp2010

For someone who wants tolerance you arnt tolerant…. You sling insults; accusations; intolerance; stereotypes around more then all the cis males i work with or am around


MuhammadsGayLover

Mhmm sexism


alborigano

THE CIS MALE WORLD AMAZES ME SO MUCH


Ariesp2010

No one said it did, jist that kids shouldn’t have to think about adult issues…. I don’t discuss my finances with my kids, or how we missed 3 months of rent over the pandemic, why would you discus sexuality with your kids? When they start asking questions about their own body’s, there are many age appropriate things that can be discussed No one said you’d be turning them gay…. Just making them then worry about adult things they shouldn’t have to as a child


sk1nsuit-

🤣😭😭 this is so hilarious to me. kids are very curious beings, they ask a lot of questions, and i’m going to answer any questions asked, not going to shove it in their face ofc:) also you should read about the age that kids start figuring out gender etc, it’s actually the age of 4!! then we start displaying those feelings at older ages, it’s psychology! read about it!


LM1120

There is nothing you can say to sway me. I will die on this hill.


InxKat13

That's circular reasoning, though. You can't say the definition of a word is the word. We can come up with a definition of woman that includes anyone who identifies as such, but we still need a definition.


LM1120

2 +2 is also 5.


Sullen-Hedgehog

Hmm. Also part of the community, but hardly the smartest or most articulate. I think what you’re saying is correct if you boil everything down to the core of owning/creating your own identity vs biology/genetics- so I’d like to say I don’t think you’re wrong. But it does feel a bit simplistic. For me the issue is the societal norm or the majority thinking. If the majority or norm is that women look, behave, sound a particular way, and you don’t fit into that… in fact, if being included in that definition at all makes you uncomfortable, it’s a natural reaction to say then maybe you’re the other. Other in this situation being male. Or non binary I guess if you don’t feel defined by either ‘classic’ definitions. Until society as a whole can say gender norms aren’t a thing, and actively accept people as beings rather than genders (ie no more of this ‘they is just so difficult!!!) this dichotomy isn’t going to go away. How about instead of trying to argue why ‘liberals’, ‘gays’, ‘woke people’, etc are so wrong, take a second to understand what navigating a world that defines you, labels you without consent- and then treats you by that definition is not helpful to growth. The argument we should be having is why does anyone else’s genitals matter to you? (You being anyone, not necessarily OP)


MemesForHumanity

Bravo!!!!!


thevaginalist

Terfs gonna terf


BxGyrl416

You want tolerance and respect, right? Well, that’s a two-way street. OP said nothing offensive, she simply asked a question and now she and others who asked are “TERFs.”


JKmusclebunny

You know why people say these things? Because they’re tired of getting shamed for simply being their sexuality


thevaginalist

No. It's cause they're terfs, and terfs use terf logic to defend their bigoted beliefs while upholding the very systems and ideologies they claim to be critical of.


JKmusclebunny

Again, people are tired of being shamed for their sexuality. Heterosexual means attraction to the opposite sex and homosexuality means attraction to the same sex. people can’t change their sexuality just because some people decided is bigotry to have a sexuality


Pegatul

Ok. Define a "woman" for me.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Valuable-Usual-1357

Language is made up. We use the term woman or female to refer to humans (and etc) born with two X chromosomes. The terms have had other social definitions in the past (mate, child bearer, gatherer) but it’s always inclusive of the chromosomes. More recently a new definition of woman has arisen but I don’t truly understand it.


SpecialPanda420

It's really not that deep


Pegatul

My definition is not the issue, since I have no problem with anyone who wants to call themselves "a woman" and therefore don't need to gatekeep. Define "female".


ducktor0

> Define "female". Human with vagina.


Pegatul

So if a person gets surgery to replace their vagina with a penis, they are no longer a woman, and if person gets surgery to replace their penis with a vagina, they are now a woman, right? Also, what does that make a person who has both a penis and a vagina, or something that isn't clearly either?


ducktor0

> Also, what does that make a person who has both a penis and a vagina, or something that isn't clearly either? If you have an underdeveloped vagina, you can still claim it is a vagina.


alborigano

A pengina? A vagenis?


Pegatul

If it's ambiguous enough to be either a penis or a vagina or both, you can't call it "an underdeveloped vagina."


[deleted]

Yes it is, you can’t accuse someone for using a word wrongly and then hide behind the fact that you have no definition. “Adult human female” is a perfect definition. What is yours? If you can’t answer the question, you have no business being offended. What is a woman?


Pegatul

As I wrote, anyone who wants to define themselves as one. It's actually in the body of my answer.


[deleted]

A woman is someone who defines themselves as a woman? I get that, I’m asking what a woman is though.


Pegatul

Btw, since OP probably won't answer, I will go ahead and make the point I was heading towards: there is no binary way to define "male" and "female". Really. The Olympics committee tried so they could define who could participate and men and women's events, and couldn't, because biological sex is not binary. They had to resort to bullshit testosterone levels as the defining parameter, which ended up affecting cis women, since again, sex is simply not binary.


Lucas_2234

"Biological Sex is not binary" Name one instance in HUMANS where it isn't? Pretty sure nature defines It by: Penis or Vagina. Which sounds real damn binary to me.


Pegatul

1. Person with XY chromosomes and a vagina, uterus, breasts, etc. 2. Person born with XY chromosomes and a vagina + breasts, but no uterus. 3. Person with XXY chromosome. 4. Person with XO chromosomes. 5. Person born with both a penis and a vagina. 6. Person born with genitals that are not clearly either. That's 6 examples, just off the top of my head. If I googled I could bring you more. It most certainly is not a simple question of "penis or vagina."


Lucas_2234

Those are all genetical abnormalities. Mutations. AKA: It was not intended for those to exist. In nature and biology, a person with a Penis is a male, and vagina is a female. I'm pretty sure I read on Wikipedia itself that case 5 only happened ONCE.


Pegatul

"Intended" by whom? And they exist. You can't just say you're ignoring them because they don't fit your binary model. You're basically saying "everybody in the world falls into one of two distinct categories.... Except these few million people that I intend to ignore because they don't fall into these categories and I don't like that."


Lucas_2234

Nature. Nature dictates it's either male and female, or no gender. You will not find a single living organism with more than 2 genders. Because that is how basic reproduction works. If you have a car, with a faulty headlight out of the factory, does that mean it's supposed to have a broken headlight? I am not saying that these aren't people, I'm saying that genetic mutations does not mean there is no chance of biology being unable to define sex.


Pegatul

"Nature" is not a person, and dictates nothing. And of course there are living organisms with more than 2 sexes: bees, for one. Some fish change sexes. Snails are both at once. Clams have 3 sexes. And again, that's just off the Cars are made intentionally, by humans. Nature just happens. All we can do is recognize what *is*. There is no "intention".


BxGyrl416

Sure, there are intersex people and those with genetic abnormalities, but they are percentage of a fraction of the population.


Pegatul

They exist. A few million of them at any given point. You can call them what you want, but you can't say "I'll ignore them because they don't fit my model". I mean, blue eyes, blond hair, green eyes and red hair are all mutations. Does that mean you only consider the existence of blank and brown eyes and hair?


Charmeleonn

It's almost like separating gender from sex is absolute non-sense.


Captain-Tac

A cis-lesbian? We categorizing lesbians and gays again?


GardeniaPhoenix

My biggest gripe is that I've been told I don't 'belong' in LGBT spaces because being under the Ace umbrella doesn't count as having suffered enough, and a gay man told me he'd be uncomfortable in an LGBT space around me because I'm heteromantic. Of course, my irl friends acknowledge that's toxic as hell.


castlehoff32

I think you just need a hug and to get outside a little more.


[deleted]

[удалено]


BxGyrl416

The goal posts keep moving here. We’re not going to get an answer because even they are really how insane it sounds to repeat.


Kong7126

Calling yourself "cis" only furthers the ideology.


Frogcozy

God sorry hold on i have to go copy snd paste this to r/transgendercirclejerk thanks for the peak material.


marc-jonhson

The binary problem !! Bisexsual is a man or a woman interested in men and women. Pansexuel is a man or a woman interested in the personality of a man or a women. Homosexual is a man interested in men. Lesbian is a women interested in women. Bicurious is a man or a women interested in having a relation whit man and women of the same sex and the other sex. Found the list on the queer wiki. The list goes on At some point we should realise that it seem like what ever you say and how you say it there is only two gender. A man or a women desing as a man or a women interested in a man or a women or both. I could do the whole liste but it seem redundent


ThatBitchBengali

Welp, found the homophobes


[deleted]

[удалено]


-milkbubbles-

Seems stressful being monosexual. Can’t relate.