T O P
GrizzlySin24

Because Riots opinion is purely based on theoretical stats . That’s very obvious when you watch at Gwen and Viego who where pick ban for an eternity in Proplay but riot says they are not broken because their winrate is 50% or below. Or the three months of Hecarim/Udyr dictatorship which they thought were completely fine (: Sure Mundo was to strong on release most people preferred playing against him them tripple flex, you can’t kill me, even if I‘m behind I just need to posses your carry Viego on release because when behind Mundo was actually useless.


Neville_Lynwood

> That’s very obvious when you watch at Gwen and Viego who where pick ban for an eternity in Proplay but riot says they are not broken because their winrate is 50% or below. That doesn't mean anything though. Some of the most "broken" picks in SoloQ are literally never even considered in Pro play (shit like Katarina for example). While half the shit that's broken in Pro isn't touched with a 100ft pole in SoloQ because of how dog shit people think it is (for example support Tahm). A champ dominating in Pro play is usually only about 50% to do with their objective power. With the other 50% of their priority based on team and player preferences, as well as draft considerations. Just because a champ is p/b in Pro does not mean it's strong in practice. Like take J4 in pro play. Good luck finding anyone who thinks the champ isn't dog shit, yet it's super high priority in Pro, even despite it losing constantly or being considered useless even if the team wins.


GrizzlySin24

Never said it’s the only metric, but if a champ is Pick/ban in every region on the highest level you might want to look at the fact why that is. From interviews I‘m pretty sure most pro junglers didn’t like the Udyr/Hecarim meta because these champs are incredibly boring to play, completely broken during that time and required 0 skill with little countersplay. They were also on most challenger games. Don’t know why you bring up J4 the only teams picking him(outside of play-ins) where LPL teams who already admitted that they had a bad Meta read


vaksninus

J4 is super strong in solo queue I have no idea what you are talking about


roadnot_taken

Vocal Minority**. Reddit is a small subset of the massive population of League. Reddit isn't even close to being the majority of leagues playerbase.


Radiant_Shelter688

The preseason video has almost 70% dislikes, it's time you guys accept you are not the majority.


InvitemetoSkeet

You know it's funny because the only people who praise riot are on reddit. Like you never see those people in-game.


ZedWuJanna

Just because they abuse PR talk doesn't mean they're right. It's hard to take rito seriously when they release stats about mythics from aram/urf and treat it like ranked stats or when they literally call teams playing in their official tournament a fiesta.


homer12346

both of that got resolved


Neville_Lynwood

Answer is very simple. Riot has millions upon millions of factual data points about the game. And not just hard stats from gameplay, but also unbiased, random samples of survey results across the globe. While any random individual or a niche community of players (like this sub-reddit) are basing everything on their personal anecdotes. Shit like "this champ kicked my ass every time, so it's 100% bullshit and I don't care what anyone says, I know I'm right". Which is ridiculous. Your personal viewpoint is never going to tell an objective story about anything. Using the T1 example. Like what does T1 really know about the game? Yes he's now played most roles into Challenger, but how much understanding of the game of League of Legends does he have really? For example, he's only playing in NA. And he's primarily playing in high elo. So he has ZERO idea how the vast majority of players around the world play the game and what they think of the game. All he has, is his subjective viewpoint and some rumous of his fellow players, of high elo NA gameplay. Which is not representative of the state of the game globally.


CreamofTazz

This is the only answer right here. This subreddit thinks it is a representative body of the larger league playerbase when in fact we are not. While we haven't gotten numbers on how many monthly players league has in a long long while if we assume the 1/10/89 rule this subreddit probably only represents \~11% of the league playerbase *at best* but more than likely by adding in Reddit's numbers for regional users it probably only represents \~11% of NA's playerbase again *at best* So for anyone reading this, anytime you see someone try to make "an objective view" of league of legends just know that they're probably only being "objective" from a very small pool of the actual playerbase.


BubblesownFlash

Having factual data points doesn’t mean you know how to understand it. Case point, Akali 123% damage buff and 80% damage taken in ARAM. This always come to mind because RIOT obsession for 50% win rates makes the game unplayable at times.


Neville_Lynwood

They have discussed data analysis several time in AMA's and even in blog posts. They legit hate sharing most of their data because the community is too god damn stupid to understand the raw data. Riot spends weeks if not months analysing the information before making changes to the game, that's why Patches seem weeks if not months behind the meta. Because they literally are. That's how long it takes to properly analyse all the data. > This always come to mind because RIOT obsession for 50% win rates makes the game unplayable at times. Chasing the 50% average is a good band-aid solution while waiting for more information and brainstorming information. Better than have a champ be 100% p/b or 0% p/b because it's considered too weak or too strong. At least with a 50% average you know that while it may end up a complete coin-flip, it's at least not going to completely be absent or overpowering.


Awyls

Riot doesn't share the data because that means they can't control the narrative. Just take a nice look at most Riot published graph/stats posts and you will notice non-sense graphs, cherry-picked % and articles wrotten before the actual data (see "mythic diversity" and kraken slayer braum).


gaom9706

>Riot doesn't share the data because that means they can't control the narrative. You have any proof of that baseless accusation?


InvitemetoSkeet

Yes it's so baseless that it happens quite literally every time they do talk about their stats.


topdrogon

This is insane levels “Riot good community stupid” copium. Their data metrics that are used to make decisions are dogshit, even if their individual data scientists are actually intelligent. The game design and balance teams literally use panelized win rates to determine champion performance (this is known through their various blog posts and videos). So many better decisions would have been made if any of Riot’s internal data scientists had an fraction of the authority that clowns such as Riot Brightmoon have. Internally, Rioters have access to more robust data, and they have some folks who work with that data to derive more meaningful metrics, but unfortunately, those are not used to inform decisions. We know this from quickly Riot implements champion changes based on deviations in win rate metrics versus deviations from other winrate metrics. Clear example is in this current patch, Quinn barely edged into some winrate performance in some elo bracket such that Riot decides “nerf”. Conversely, Aphelios and Samira had unheard of ban rates across most elos and most servers around the world for *multiple patches into months* before those champs were adjusted, because “their winrates weren’t too high :)”. There’s other evidence for all this as well, but I’m not going to spend my time spelling out the very obvious, that Riot is an art company whose game design and champion balance teams are artists, and who do not actively collaborate with sophisticated data scientists to get a better understanding of the game they are in charge of. They don’t even play the game they’re in charge of, my god.


ontnotton

And they do in fact show the data, always the "stupid community" call out their bullshit.


BubblesownFlash

Except the 50 is across all Elos. If a highly mechanical champion is too strong, it becomes OP on the hands of one-tricks and highly mechanical players. I don’t understand how you’re failing to realize that.


InvitemetoSkeet

HAHA so true bro Riot is so much fucking smarter than you it's insane. It's funny because everytime they do release their infallible "data" (ur words not mind) it legitimately always ends up being fucking stupid.


Radiant_Shelter688

And how well has that been working for them ? They keep nerfing Ryze and Aurelion even though the only reason they're played is for their roaming ability, which is basically worthless in soloqueue environment. They made Diana, Zed, Qiyana and Talon junglers, champions designed around having a weak early-game before their 6, who can now safely farm until their powerspike in the jungle. They refuse to fix the three musketeers of toplane (Fiora, Camille, Aatrox), won't even address Tahm and think Hullbreaker is a good item. They simply rotate between broken junglers by slapping monster damage on them during the season and call it "diversity". They don't even understand that the mythic problem doesn't require only some new mythics, and that the biggest issue is that even if they do add some mythics, we're still gonna take the broken ones until they fix them. They don't even know how to fix the whole GW/Healing problem which was a result of them not knowing how to fix the Tank/Damage problem without creating a burst meta. They think the bounty system is a balanced system and are even implementing objective bounties. They can't even implement an actual honor system based on honor and not just spamming games and think removing /all chat is a better investment. They don't even know what people want from an event and think that the "lore is dispensable". They think ARAM should be balanced around a perfect 50% winrate like SR even though ARAM has a huge factor which is "random champion" and the balance they do is a simple percentage change of damage given and taken. They don't even understand why some game modes work more than others and don't even want to bother trying to fix them and think investing in new modes is better (Nexus Blitz was a good example of this). They don't even understand why monster champions are "so unpopular" (which is already false) and just assume it's because people don't like them.


TugginPud

I'm an ARAM main and I will tell you that without a doubt the ARAM balance team is someone who has 3 other full time jobs and then slaps the balance changes together 3 minutes before patch because they forgot and no one noticed they forgot, and no one cared.


ReganDryke

The player base perception is based mostly on emotion and anecdote which isn't too surprising considering we don't really have the tools to do proper data based analysis. While Riot have mountains of Data to help them inform their decision on the game. There is also the fact that game design have a very different perspective than players on the game.


Expensive-Big-4615

I can give a silver player all the knowledge in the world hes still silver and still has no idea whats going on or why its strong. Thats riot and stats. No the company doesn't know any better or it would show. This is like believing only your parent is right type of shit.


Sypieni

Yes but no. Being a good player doesn't make you a good game designer. It's like saying, yeah Enzo Ferrari was shit at making car because he couldn't pilot like a god. It's also like saying : Lewis Hamilton has to be one of the best automotive engineer because he is one of the best pilot. It just doesn't translate. Sure considering top player feedback is definitely valuable but it should never the only consideration


Quilva

There is a big gap between piloting like a god and not being able to pilot at all.


Chivibro

League is the #1 game, and it has been for a while...if Riot is like our parents, then you'd be the spoiled brat who doesn't appreciate or understand all the stuff they have. Riot is actually REALLY good at what they do m8


[deleted]

[удалено]


InvitemetoSkeet

I was unironically going to ask if this was ironic but I just see that flair. Not that I blame you I would fall into the same trap if I were a support main.


Chivibro

If you don't have anything to say, then you should just not say anything


Rayspekt

The problem is that Riot didn't build a conclusive argument with their statements. They just said "Them numbers are fine, dude trust me." about balanced champ releases and did a "akchually, we don't think so" about overloaded kits. Yeah no shit, people will get mad because it sounds like you're just talking out of your arse. Spill the beans why you're making such bold statements, jeez. Arguments are built upon conclusive premises and not out of thin air.


Neville_Lynwood

> Spill the beans why you're making such bold statements, jeez. They have done it in the past, but the bottom line is simple: The data is too complex. They have whole departments who's job is to analyse the data from the games, which can take weeks. Which is why patches always seem like they're delayed. By the time Riot finishes analysing a meta and comes up with solutions, the player base will have been angry for a month. But that's just how long it takes. Sharing this data with the community has proven to be very unproductive because your average redditor literally doesn't understand the data. They don't have the education in stat analysis. They can't comprehend the myriad of data points and variables and will inevitably misunderstand and think Riot is bullshitting them somehow. The average redditor refuses to accept that people who've spent years learning to do the job are better than them at understanding it. Your average redditor is absolutely certain that despite zero education or study, they can comprehend the data just fine and know better than Riot.


InvitemetoSkeet

Redditors are so stupid, if only they went to Grand Canyon University for their Esports game balance degree. It's not like the majority of the people there's only qualification was an Econ/Business/CS degree before they worked there.


Rayspekt

I see your point but still there has to be a middle ground between no data and talking about coefficient of variance and root-sqare-mean-errors of their model fits.


baydew

Because Reddit’s primary question was “do I hate playing against this champion?” and Riots question is “do people like playing this champion?” Reddit was fine with Mundo rework almost precisely because it wasn’t very strong and you didn’t see it everywhere