T O P

The vaccinated are already protected

The vaccinated are already protected

PostMadandAlone

I got vaccinated, if someone else isn't vaccinated, I'm fine, I don't care, if vaccination gets mandated, I'll still be against it because I want people to have a choice


_sea_salty

Honestly same. I highly encourage people to get vaccinated, but if you don’t want to fine by me.


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ToyOfRhamnusia

You can do with YOUR body, what you want. I just want to do with mine what I want. I HAD the disease, and I need no vaccination to weaken my immune system. Maybe you think that vaccine "protects" you, but MINE certainly does not. You will not get infected from me, and I won't get it from you, but that is not because of your vaccination...


duddyface

People are “mandated” to stop at stop signs for their own safety as well as the safety of others. Do you think people should have a choice of whether or not to obey those too? Where do you draw the line between a mandate you choose to follow and one that you don’t?


tirelessly_living

That affects others. Almost everyone can just protect themselves with a vaccine/ not hanging out with high risk people


ServeChilled

Other than what others have already mentioned about how even if vaccinated you can still get sick, not vaccinating i.e. Not slowing down the spread of covid allows it to mutate more frequently making the vaccines less effective. Not vaccinating also puts those with compromised immune systems at risk because they cannot get vaccinated to protect themselves. Vaccinating protects others not just those who are vaccinated, so please for the love of all that is good, if you are able to, go get vaccinated. If you don't want to vaccinate fine but you need to limit your contact with other people otherwise you're just being a dick, you want to have your cake and eat it too.


DistributionExternal

A non vaccinated person in ICU is taking up capacity. How is that not impacting anyone?


duddyface

Vaccinated people can still get sick. Not being vaccinated and entering a public space affects other people too. Edit: I’m not arguing you *have* to get vaccinated but I am arguing restrictions are justified if you don’t. Don’t get the shot but stay away from other people. You can’t have it both ways, that’s just selfish.


tirelessly_living

Restrictions in businesses mean little in terms of science, as far as I know. COVID is almost entirely spread by sustained contact with the same person for several minutes, indoors and neither wearing masks. No one really does that outside of an intentional meeting with a person, so at that point they are assuming the risk.


xXPUSS3YSL4Y3R69Xx

But if you can still get covid even if you’re vaxxed then why seclude the unvaxxed just because they might give you covid?


GoldAndBlackRule

Vaccinated people can also spread the virus. These vaccines have no discernable effect on spreading the virus. Only natural immunity does. Vaccines *can* reduce the severity of symptoms, so for those who are at risk, the smart *choice*, on the advice of their doctor, is to get the jab.


doobyscoob09

I personally draw a line when it involves putting something into a persons’ body. Or any medical decision really. I do see your point, but I see it differently


duddyface

I can understand that but we’re already mandated to get other vaccines and by remaining unvaccinated and expecting to be allowed full access to public spaces someone is effectively making a medical decision for the people around them and removing *their* choice over what goes in their body which in this case is a potentially fatal virus that even in a mild case can make someone sick. If COVID was an individual thing and couldn’t be spread to others then I’d absolutely support their right to choose but when the consequences of spreading it can potentially be fatal then there should be negative consequences for refusing it because the rest of the world has a right to be in public spaces without being needlessly exposed against their will.


LaterChunk

People who are scared of covid can get vaccinated. It's free and there is no line.


duddyface

Not sure how that addressed my point. People are free to choose to remain unvaccinated but that doesn’t give them freedom to potentially harm other people by entering public spaces. Even vaccinated people can still get sick and they have a right to go to work, school, the grocery store, or whatever without having to worry about being exposed to COVID by someone who chose not to vaccinate. Arguing that it’s ok for some people not to get it because other people can choose to get it is the same as arguing that some people can choose to ignore stop signs as long as other people choose to stop. What happens when two people choose to ignore it at the same time? “As long as most people stop then why do they care if I don’t?”


LaterChunk

Based on my understanding the vaccine doesn't stop you from spreading it and it doesn't stop you from getting it. At this point all anyone claims it does is reduce the severity of illness if you do catch covid after being vaccinated. So if vaccinated and unvaccinated people can infect others why should they be treated differently? And seriously the stop sign analogy is not a good one. If I run a stop sign I am rushing other peoples lives 100% of the time, it won't airways result in a crash, but it's always a risk. If I walk into a store unvaccinated but also not infected, I am not a danger to anyone. Your stop sign analogy basically assumes that everyone without a vaccine is covid positive and everyone with a vaccine is covid negative. If that were the case and everyone who got vaccinated would never get covid, you would have forgotten covid existed months ago, and everyone would get vaccinated. But the truth is that the vaccine only protects the individual, but the protection it provides is rather weak or short lived unfortunately. The other thing people like you tend to ignore is this, What positive benefit do the vaccines provide? Antibodies. Well what about all of the unvaccinated people with antibodies? Why isn't the conversation about people without antibodies? It's not hard to prove you have antibodies. Why aren't those people considered equal to vaccinated people? They have basically the exact same benefit to society.


seimungbing

yea, your view is why measles and mumps are still a fucking thing in any developed nations.


PostMadandAlone

Weak analogy moving on


duddyface

It’s not weak. Have you ever heard the expression “my freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins”? People are free to choose whatever they want when it doesn’t affect people around them but as soon as your choices start negatively affecting other people then there will be negative consequences for making that choice. It’s as simple as that.


Hownowbrowncow6

Your analogy is so stupid, it’s not worth anyone’s time to argue against. An injection isn’t a stop sign.


scooterT12

Agreed. Let everyone who wants to get vaccinated get vaccinated, then remove the lockdown so that nobody is forced to cave to each other's beliefs.


ScaredDelta

My views as a libertarian: If your rights don’t get in the way of mine, we’re good aren’t we? Also I should say I’m not vaccinated but that’s because I’m underage and my mom didn’t want me to get the vaccine so she said no to the vaccine. I do really want to get vaccinated tho


Basic_Ad_5113

Yeah, that’s what I’m subscribed to


HighwayDrifter41

That’s kinda the general libertarian mindset explained in one sentence


dlham11

Tell that to the “libertarian-socialists” here


_sea_salty

Are there actual people that identify that?


dlham11

oh, you’re so innocent..


wrong-mon

Bro, libertarian leftists have been around for centuries longer than libertarian rightists. Most people on Earth who identify as Libertarian think that capitalism is the threat to Liberty. It's only Americans and terminally online Europeans who think that libertarianism is some exclusively right-wing philosophy


doodliest_dude

>Most people on Earth who identify as Libertarian think that capitalism is the threat to Liberty. Utter bull.


LovesBeerNWhiskey

Only if you go to r/libertarian. Those people are a joke.


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Smuggykitten

Rush Limbaugh was a leftist?


CaptainObvious1313

The far right are no better. Religious zealots


wrong-mon

Clearly you've never read anything about the political philosophy known as anarchism which has been a Cornerstone of leftist political thought for 300 years. And as for guns ‘Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempts to disarm the people must be stopped, by force if necessary’ is a karl marx qoute No political philosophy has launched more armed uprisings against authoritarian governments than leftists. those motherfukers love guns


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excusetheblood

Libertarianism literally started as left-wing and anti capitalist


parlezlibrement

Wrong.


AspSupreme

He's not wrong. That still doesn't mean libertarian socialism is viable, lol.


Pirateangel113

Like any pure form of any government/economic theory is viable? Every government/economy in existence is mixed mainly because pure theoretical governments are not possible. Every theoretical government/economy has flaws. And the best way to get rid of those flaws is by mixing these theoretical concepts in a way to decrease the amount of flaws they have. The U.S started out pretty close to laissez faire capitalism but has moved closer an closer to a mixed form of government/economy where government intervention comes in when capitalistic systems fail. In things like public infrastructure.


AspSupreme

Yes, I'm aware. But this system maximizes issues that weren't previously an issue with our previous system of almost laissez-faire. Such as massive government spending issues, a botched mixed healthcare system, a market being toyed with to the point where it's beginning to collapse in on itself, massive fluctuations occurring in both inflation, employment, and poverty despite Keynesian economics being created specifically to limit massive fluctuations... all while still having most of the wealth limited to .1% of the population and creating a corporatocracy so powerful that company heads are being considered to join seats in the fuckin UN. This is all due to the fact that while keynesian economics has sound merit, the government cannot always be trusted with the responsibility of managing a massive economy and its currency, nor can it be entirely trusted to handle the power of corporations that power the economy without jumping in bed with them. No economic system is perfect, true. But in no way does mixing economic systems together like it's some chopped salad magically mean most of its problems get solved. You actually end up making more, and often end up solving very little to none, or exacerbating one issue to the point where it single handedly destroys the economy.


plazman30

Fun fact. Libertarianism was originally a left wing philosophy. Then a bunch of Libertarians realized that libertarianism is incompatible with the left and the right and became what we think of as modern Libertarians. The left wing libertarians call this the "right-wing" hijacking of the Libertarian movement. I consider this a natural progression. Libertarians are neither left or right.


CaptainObvious1313

Truth


dlham11

I believe libertarianism is far right economically. Left obligates everyone participates, however, right is a more “do what you want, it’s a free economy.” You’re still welcome to build a commune in a free economy with no gov intervention. Edit: That’s just my take on it.


plazman30

I agree that's it's right economically. But the Left and Right are so far from Liberty in their social and foreign policy, that I find them both to be unpalatable.


parlezlibrement

That means its neither left or right. Its authority vs liberty.


parlezlibrement

They were never "left-wing" to begin with. Especially since the "left-right" paradigm is a fallacy. Ergo, since left and right do not exist, libertarianism was never left or right. If you mean to speak of "classical liberalism" then its time to wake up to the fact that it was never "left-wing" whatsoever.


Basic_Ad_5113

Yeah, very well said. I actually came back here to re-read your comment 10 days later.


wrong-mon

That's not even close to what happened. In the 1970's the term was co-opted by a group of right wing hippies, and because they had an easier time getting media exposure than anarchists and Communists they were able to take the name in the mind of the American public. Believing in deregulation and unregulated capitalism or classical liberal economics is an inherently right wimg economic mindset. The neoliberals have long since abandoned total laissez-faire stances and have realize that state intervention is necessary to maintain markets. Right Libertarians economic is right-of-center to the far-right, on the spectrum.


Basic_Ad_5113

Exactly


parlezlibrement

NO, it isn't. Exercising your rights is not an infringement of someone else exercising their rights. Rights do not get in the way of rights. People do.


HighwayDrifter41

Yeah one person's rights cannot infringe on another person's rights, otherwise it really isn't a right. That's why I said kinda. But I think you knew what I meant.


parlezlibrement

That's not how "rights" work. So long as you're not infringing anyone's rights, then we're good.


rymden_viking

Your eights end where mine begin and my rights end where yours begin.


Epyon214

Is access to emergency medical facilities during an emergency a right? Or is alright for people during those emergencies to die as they become overwhelmed with the unvaccinated? Even with 95% effectiveness, 1 in 20 vaccinated individuals are still at significant risk. Now if you were to say that those who have still chosen not to get the vaccine waive their rights to emergency medical treatment for covid, with exception to those who have a legitimate medical reason for why they can't get the vaccine, I might be on board.


rontwatson7

So what about people who need hospitalized for non-COVID reasons… lots of tumor resection being delayed. You all have a logic issue in that you can’t seem to realize any down stream effects of a “personal choice”.


ellusionist1913

Obesity, smoking, drinking, drug use, promiscuity, contact and action sports, eating meat, driving inefficient cars, gambling, sedentary lifestyles etc. When does the government get to start mandating actions to prevent the “downstream effects” of those personal choices?


Beeblebro1

None of those personal choices are maxing out hospital capacities around the country and preventing those who need help from getting it.


ellusionist1913

Please do a little research on hospital capacity and specifically ICU capacity in the US.


Beeblebro1

Am I saying it's perfect normally? Hell no. Would we be better off with more hospital capacity? Probably, but I'm not a city planner/public health expert or doctor, so I'm not going to guess wildly. But there's (usually) always the options to shuffle people around, transfer to the next hospital, etc. Again, far from perfect, but ensures people who turn up at the hospital get the care they need. **This cannot happen when all the hospitals are packed full of COVID patients**.


Choon93

1) Entire organizations exist to reduce or educate on those behaviors 2) they don't mutate and spread at an exponential rate


PanzerKommander

The obesity rate shaure seems like it does, but we're still free to get that double quarter pounder!


heatbeam

This is where I net out with this as well honestly. First of all, let me just say I’m not nearly as hardcore libertarian as most commentators I see here. I’m simply a libertarian-leaning moderate. I think the mandate issue is really tricky because I get it, but I also *totally* admit that the precedent makes me uneasy. But just like you’re pointing out. Many seem to ignore (or want to ignore) the fact that your right to not vax truly could indirectly kill someone else, not just you. It’s not just one of those “my-choice-and-why-should-you-care-it-doesn’t-affect-you” type of deals. And if your response to that is “well if you’re scared stay home,” I get that too, but look around. That’s not what’s happening. Idk, ramble/rant over I guess. Definitely one of the trickier political stances I’ve been kinda in-the-middle on in recent years.


doobyscoob09

I believe the kind of common thought going around, that eventually everyone will have their run in with covid. As long as you’re vaccinated, you’re protected. Even with delta, it’s still exceedingly rare to die after getting the jab. Life is full of risk and reward, I don’t see any amount of promised safety being worth any lost liberty. My two cents


nosteppyonsneky

It’s still exceedingly rare to die without the jab.


MaMerde

More people have died from COVID complications than all our wars combined.


Jarl_Ivarr

More people died from alcohol related conditions than our wars combined. We should reinstate prohibition....... /s


MaMerde

Is alcoholism an airborne virus? We allow consumption of alcohol, but draw the line at driving under the influence of alcohol…because it affects others. Dipshit. And I’m half-drunk on my couch. Not driving around exposing everyone to my poor life choices.


nosteppyonsneky

Once you go down the “indirectly” road, you have already lost. Damn near every action has an indirect chance to harm someone. Driving a car? Exhaust could hurt someone. Smoking? Second hand smoke hurt someone. Using electricity? Could contribute to a brownout that could kill someone. Blah blah blah. Hospitals are constantly plagued with surges to or over capacity. It happens every year. Why was it only a secondary issue till now? Because you have been told to care. You truly are that programmable.


heatbeam

You missed my point. Collectively, a choice to not vaccinate will lead to deaths that otherwise wouldn’t have happened. It’s a fact. I’m not saying that that means mandates are great. Just stating a fact.


dinosaur_socks

You missed his point. Collectively the choice of people that smoke cigarettes will lead to deaths that otherwise would not have happened (through second hand smoke- cancer etc). It's a fact. I'm not saying that means cigarette taxes are good. Just stating a fact.


dinosaur_socks

Then why was the flu vaccine never considered the same way before covid existed, the #1 disease related to cause of death for older people is the flu. Why do we have to vaccinate against a mutating cold but not against the mutating flu. It's asinine. It's circular logic to say we have to vaccinate to protect others. Anecdotally, the ONLY people I have known to get covid in the last 6 months are the vaccinated. All the unvaccinared people I know who had or didn't have the virus previously have not. If it was 1 or 2 I could ignore it but it's like 9 vaxxers getting covid to 4 nonvaxxers not getting it. RI sample size but it's definitely fuckin weird right?


OsMagum

Aside from the trouble already mentioned, the only claims being made from the CDC is that these vaccines will lessen the severity when you catch Covid. They do not stop the spread.


Coffee_Poos

But muh overcrowded hospitals creating negative externalities!


Key_Negotiation6893

Lmao so overcrowded they just fired <10% of the hospital staff in NY... the state who's governor wrote a book and got a bunch of rewards on how to handle this 'worst disease to plague mankind'. Apparently alls you have to do is force, basically THE ONLY vulnerable demographic, into concentration centers also known as nursing homes resulting in the most deaths per capita pretty much anywhere.


helltricky

>they just fired <10% of the hospital staff in NY... That is definitely nowhere near accurate. In some town in NY, maybe


Key_Negotiation6893

90% of statistics are just made up on the spot. 60% of the time it works everytime...


Frank_Renolds_357mag

“Overcrowded”


tirelessly_living

Hospitals should just choose what % of the beds can be devoted to COVID patients—then people that have cancer can still be treated, and people will have been incentivized by the market to get the vaccine


lucydeville1949

The number of ICU beds do not impact the vast majority of people seeking cancer treatment. Closing surgical services and outpatient treatment services did that.


rontwatson7

Yeah, kind of part of the oath that we can’t just say “I disagree with your choices, so you die”


stewartm0205

Not the way it is currently done. The most sick get the bed first until the beds are full then it is triage time.


snidramon

Hospitals are full in my entire state because of covidiots and their death cult. I really wish they picked flavorade or just jumping off a cliff. If they think its a hoax they shouldn't trust the hospital to save them anyway. But here we are.


Meat_Candle

Yeah a friend had to wait on a gurney for two days before getting a room. Fucking insane how crowded they are


Coffee_Poos

Lol no it isnt. ​ What state?


papersuite

The state cannot tax and control the dead.....


Coffee_Poos

The state taxes the fuck outta the dead. Thats their biggest payday.


ToolboxMotley

But they *can* use the dead for votes!


RN_in_Illinois

You from Chicago too?


PostMadandAlone

And or Maricopa county


Key_Negotiation6893

Have you heard of estate taxes inheritance taxes??? They can and do take a massive amount of money from their subjects when they die....


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Individual-Notice-16

They want to be outraged that someone with a huge estate has to pay a ‘death tax’ even though this will likely never impact them. And those that are mega wealthy have been estate planning for decades to get around these inheritance taxes anyway.


Leading-Delivery-278

The unvaccinated under 84 years old will be fine too


Stupidnames04

If half of America wasn’t obese I’d say you might be right.


Leading-Delivery-278

I think anti-fat legislation like regulating soda size is as bad as vaccine mandates


veiledspy

Let the fatties drink!


Pittsburgh__Rare

Don’t you go spreading that information on the internets!


Jscott1986

Clearly you've never browsed r/HermanCainAward


Leading-Delivery-278

Yes, some unvaccinated people have died, even less of covid


PissOfDiogenes

The vast majority of the covid dead from the past 6 or so months have been from the unvaccinated, but I’m sure that fact gets in the way of your feelings.


Leading-Delivery-278

Considering more people are unvaccinated than vaccinated it just makes sense


pickymeek

Whatdya say we look at a state sitting around 50% and compare that? Nice little natural experiment. Let’s just say, wouldn’t wanna be the control group.


Leading-Delivery-278

I’m never said the vaccine is ineffective, it was just a stupid assertion. If I take 62% of people and compare them to the other 38% there’ll obviously be more in the big group


pickymeek

Okay…… so let’s look at the numbers from a state sitting at 50% vaccinated? Let’s just say, wouldn’t wanna be the control group.


Software_Vast

Yep. It only kills the old. It only kills the obese. Until it doesn't. But that won't happen to you, right? You're the protagonist of this story!


Leading-Delivery-278

It won’t happen to me because I’m young and healthy, the flu also won’t kill me, I’ll be living my life until I can’t anymore


Software_Vast

What was the leading cause of death among police last year?


SandChaos

I'm young and healthy and I caught it in Feb, before I could get vacc'd. It didn't kill me. My taste buds are fucked up and I have kidney damage from it, probably along with some other stuff I haven't been tested for. I wouldn't take it so lightly if I were you.


Leading-Delivery-278

I know the risks, I’m not worried, leave me alone 🤷‍♂️


pickymeek

Just don’t puss out and head to the hospital if it gets hard to breathe.


Twerksogood

Of course they will. Every single person crying about how the healthcare system is involved in (insert unsubstantiated conspiracy theory here) and refusing the vaccine will run to the hospital as soon as they get sick.


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Leading-Delivery-278

I’ll respond when I contract COVID-19


Smooth-Sock-5742

You need to be scared! Like what the fuck… be afraid of things! You need to fear all the things you are told to fear!


Saucemycin

We had a 19 year old in our ICU, young and healthy, who probably thought the same thing. He’s been dead for a couple weeks now. Not that that will have any impact on your belief though.


dontchango

An anomaly is unlikely to change anyones belief…


Bldijande

The flu also killed some young people. But its so rare that the majority of people didn't worry too much. This is such a dumb emotional argument. Yes people die in a world where you have free choice and can decide for yourself.


Software_Vast

Was the flu ever the leading cause of death among police?


Bldijande

Its funny that your first argument is some random factoid you saw as a reddit headline, without even looking into what the study was actually about. They wouldn't have counted a flu death as a death while on duty, while with corona they did by default. I fail to see why even bring randomly up cops. How is that relevant?


Particular-Fee-1023

Yeah just forget about all the people who can't get vaccinated, or that it's not effective for, their lives don't matter. /s


DoWidzenya

Also, fuck people who got the vaccines too. So much for herd immunization. The virus will keep mutating on the ones who didn't get the vaccine and will eventually come back for those who did.


Gerump

Someone else who actually understands basic virology and evolution. A breath of fresh air.


DashboTreeFrog

Exactly these two points, I wish these were the top comments. The idea that choosing to not get a vaccine during a pandemic does not encroach on the rights of others doesn't hold up to scrutiny imo. The less overall immunity there is in the population, the more dangerous it is for those who can't get vaccinated and the more likely we are to get more dangerous variants. The Delta variant caused enough trouble as is, and yeah, I know viruses tend to evolve to become less deadly over time, but I'd rather we end this than just see what happens.


Individual-Notice-16

The libertarians are so focused on the individual level they can’t seem to grasp that some things do in fact matter on a societal scale. I agree with the posts above and wish people could see public heath as a valid and necessary part of our governments.


shah357

Stop pushing your scientific agenda on us! (Also /s) Honestly though, less Americans doesn’t seem that bad on paper. The solution to America’s problems isn’t less problems, it’s less Americans.


Gerump

Don’t try adding context to the MUH FREEDOM crowd. They don’t understand that freedom is a combination of sacrifices that amount to the greatest amount of freedom for all. How easily they ignore the fact that the men who died for our freedom in WW1 and WW2 were drafted against their will. You’re based sir/ma’am


listen_twice_as_much

How many more years will this argument keep going? If you were to search for this virus throughout all of Reddit I'm pretty sure everything all of you are saying has been said about 40 billion times. It's real old and tired and the arguing back and forth like anyone's mind is going to change is wild. How about you worry about you and yours and I'll worry about me and mine and we all just be happy, Why is that so hard to grasp?


Pittsburgh__Rare

Because they don’t hand out awards for being the best rule follower and some people need attention.


listen_twice_as_much

That's a fact, seeking validation is a very bad mindset.


UlyssesOddity

Free to incubate new, improved versions of the virus?


Specialist_Leg3439

I'm unvaccinated and I'm 100% fine with that


FilthyKallahan

Or how about the fact that NOBODY WHATSOEVER is even discussing the fact that the 45 million people that have caught Covid are now naturally vaccinated and are much better protected than anyone with a vaccine. Yet, for some reason, we still need to get vaccinated, even though the vaccine clearly doesn't work as advertised.


Quick2Die

because this has never been about protecting people... Blows my mind that people didn't wake up to this at 15 days to flatten the curve...


saltysaltycracker

Holy heck. Get all these non libertarians out of here. So many people against freedom.


DrMcFoxyMD

Everyone I know is vaccinated except for my year old son. He’s the only thing I’m worried about.


MaMerde

Mine too. Be safe.


Ventorii

MUh HoSPitALs aRE aT fUlL cApacAtY! I live across the street from a hospital and it is the slowest its ever been there last 3 months. Sick of the false narrative.


SenseAmidMadness

Dude I work for a large heath system and we were at 94% capacity last week. I dont know where you live and how you know what a hospital at capacity looks like.


fr33domphyter

Pretty sure hospitals are designed to run at a maximum efficient capacity. What sense would it make to have a hospital that is only 50-70% full all the time?


firebert85

If he can see even one example in his own backyard to the contrary, he doesn't wanna hear about the rest of reality. It's the "I can clearly see with my own two eyes the horizon isn't curved" mentality.


Saucemycin

We’re finally at about 90% capacity after having 1 ICU bed available at any time out of 113 for the past few weeks. Just ICU not floor bed census, I have no idea what theirs is. Unfortunately the mobile morgue had to be brought back because that’s how our census finally reduced


Ventorii

Because I have seen what it looks like full. Because I live across the street mate. The nurses walk over to my property so they can smoke because they can't on hospital grounds. You hear alot and see alot. I don't care if you're the queens personal doctor I will never reject the evidence of my eyes.


SenseAmidMadness

I see the problem. You live in the UK or a commonwealth. I suppose our situations are different are we are in entirely different countries.


heatbeam

This thread right here. This is another issue I have with it. All the “false narrative” talk (or the “all hospitals are fucked” talk) as if every pocket of the world is under the same circumstance. YOU’RE BOTH RIGHT. If you’re in an area where hospital capacities are fine, then of course you’re reasonable to say fuck the mandate outright. I would too. But in some places, capacities truly are fucked, and some people are paying the price for it (as in dying) because of capacity issues that would be lessened or nonexistent with higher vax rates. I’m not choosing sides here, the mandate is weird for me bc I get both sides, and the precedent makes me uneasy. Just sayin...


Overall_Lobster_4738

Well I live across the street from 37 hospitals and they are all full so I win. See how a personal anecdote doesn't matter?


Fixthe-Fernback

>MUh HoSPitALs aRE aT fUlL cApacAtY! > >I live across the street from a hospital and it is the slowest its ever been there last 3 months. Sick of the false narrative. I just ate a cheeseburger, so world hunger doesn't exist. Moron


SnoLeppard13

You know viruses mutate, right?


FungalCoochie

You say that as though there’s a scenario where the virus is eradicated and stops mutating. It could take decades for humans to develop sufficient resistance to meet the current standard for permissible mortality. If we cling on to the lockdown apocalypse strategy it’s just gonna be less food on the shelves and more civil unrest until everyone gets sick of it one way or another.


LeConnor

Libertarians hate this one ~~trick~~ basic fact!


rontwatson7

You all really can’t see beyond one step in front of you huh?


TooWitty4U

Meanwhile in Australia..... https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/your-six-months-is-up-daniel-andrews-hints-boosters-will-be-needed-to-keep-fully-vaccinated-freedoms/news-story/9fe6ec45f4d9530ab438f339598b1cb9


JustTiredSigh

''Give me your lunch money and I won't beat you up.'' ''Oh okay here I don't mind if it keeps me from being beaten up, after all there's no time limit so it must be indefinite.'' *The next day* ''Give me your lunch money and I won't beat you up.'' ''W-What? But I gave it to you yesterday and you said you wouldn't beat me up!'' ''That was yesterday not today. Now give it up.''


JihadTape

That's not how vaccines work but do you.


GangreneGoblin

People who have chosen not to get it can become infected for longer than those who have gotten it, and therefore remain contagious longer. It can then be spread to those who were unable to receive a vaccination due to medical reasons, who may potentially die from it. That's why it's recommended that the vaccine be administered to everyone who is able to receive it.


Overall_Lobster_4738

"I don't understand how vaccines work so just let me do what I want." Fixed it


CosmicLovepats

Vaccination is not 100%- you can still get sick and die while vaccinated, you're just vastly less likely to. There are also people who for whatever reason *cannot* get vaccinated. Immunocompromised, genuinely allergic to it, whatever. ​ Finally, vaccinated people can get it without much difficulty; their immune system is just much better equipped to handle it. They still will, briefly, be home to a small colony of the viru and be able to spread it, or- very, very unlikely- get struck *just right* by a cosmic ray and mutate into a more virulent or vaccine-immune strain. An *infinitesimal chance*, but every single virus that has a chance to exist is rolling those dice one more time. ​ And of course people who *never ever get it* can still die from it if the hospital is inundated with covid patients and doesn't have space/resources/personnel to treat someone who gets in a car accident. ​ A lot of people seem to want to think libertarianism means "I should have no responsibilities" or that it means "the government should have no responsibilities". Responding to a plague is one of the very basic things governments have been responsible since there were governments.


Green-Turbulent

Love this. So tired of being called a right wing trumpist for thinking people can do what they please. I don’t even hate the right it just isn’t true of me


LuvDaBiebz

I’ve said many times that the moment the vaccine was available to nearly everyone who wanted it, the governments job is done. The state of emergency is over But it’s not…


fritobird

Build special places for them to die so as not to fill up the hospitals. Not really. The carnage would be too much to take.


Odd-Basket-6142

Yeah... except if you understand anything about science and evolution. The more people that catch covid, the more opportunities it gets to mutate. Out of all those mutations, the odds are that one of them will eventually be what the virus needs to get around the vaccines. If everyone got vaccinated all at once, the virus would die out before it got that chance to mutate. So your personal freedom actually does limit mine, because by you choosing not to get vaccinated you increase the likelihood of all the vaccines becoming useless and me and my grandmother dying. Please, for the sake of my grandma, and yours and everyone else's, get vaccinated. Your decision absolutely effects other people and their freedoms.


FilthyKallahan

And that fate has about a 99.8% chance of being good. I'll take those odds.


Powerthrucontrol

You're math is wrong


ResponsibilityNice51

But my vitamins don’t work unless you take yours!


Jscott1986

Because vitamins are just like communicable diseases. Great analogy.


keeleon

They cant do this because when the unvaccinated come out completely fine it will become obvious the whole thing was a sham.


real_bk3k

I suppose you think the covid death statistics are fake. Fair enough. Look at the US's mortality statistics (all deaths regardless of cause) for every year from 2010 to 2020. Tell me what jumps out at you. Like going from 2.8 million deaths a year to 3.3 million deaths all a sudden in 2020. Bill Gates must have been busy assassinating random people. Very busy. I've read enough accounts here, like crematoriums running out of space and having to rent refrigerated trucks. The worker considering quitting from working way to many hours and just being burnt out. So we got extra corpses. Lots of extra corpses. You tell me where they came from, since you know better. Maybe ask Communist China, since that is your (real) source for (mis)information about the virus and vaccines came from anyhow - much like the virus itself. Your info came from a Chinese propaganda operation and the virus from their lab. Making you not take it seriously - and avoid the vaccine created by Western scientists to protect you from their laboratory virus - that's all part of their greater strategy to weaken us. Certainly you do your part, but you don't know better. Just like so many other. Their operation is a striking success. Xi thanks you for your contribution.


keeleon

Lmao man youre making a lot of assumptions about a single sentence. Gold medal in jumping to conclusions. Whats the average age of a covid death?


Mr_Bluebird_VA

Seriously though, what lockdowns? Nothing is locked down in the US anymore. Mandates, that's different. They still make their choice not to get vaccinated and lose their job. Fine by me.


DistributionExternal

There is a 99% job survival rate.


JoYac35

It won’t happen that way. The government wants to make sure the tax payer gets their money’s worth with the billions that were spent in getting the vaccine produced and out to the public.


Ok_Grapefruit6758

And the vaccines only have a 6 month shelf life.


ew2x4

Being a libertarian doesn’t mean you get to be an idiot about science.


dunnowhat2use

Meanwhile those of us that have natural immunity (which is 1,000 times better than the vaccine) get shit on daily. Don't give me that crap about hospitals I work in EMS and they are full but not because of covid, in Michigan anyway.


Jscott1986

I guess you trust politicians than medical experts: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/coronavirus/os-ne-coronavirus-natural-immunity-vaccine-20211022-ewl2fzdn55gppkzwqcqh5sfzku-story.html


dunnowhat2use

You can "guess" whatever you want. Fuck government mandates. https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital


snidramon

Well when do you get sick, make sure you stick to you guns and stay out of those liberal hospitals! they're killing people by helping them breathe instead of using horse dewormer, after all!


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rokudaimehokage

Just because you've chosen to be a plague rat does not mean I want to open the country up and let you infect my grandmother. I'll let you die alone in your one bedroom apartments first.


imkharn

The gene therapy is only partially protecting and rapidly loses its effectiveness. For this reason, those that chose to go without the shot really do put Pfizer and Moderna customers at increased risk. Yes proponents are contradicting themselves, but memes like this are seeing it from the wrong angle. They don't want to admit the gene therapy solution is a tiny fraction as protecting as natural immunity, and this omission makes them seem self contradicting. Yes gene therapy users are just as contagious (same viral load according to Fauci) but for less time so they spread it less.


naziCocksSpezLoves

ITT people who don’t understand how viruses work


tacticalcop

ok but not everyone has the choice to get vaccinated. those people have a right to protection in the society we live in. live in the society, participate in it. protect your fellow person.


Idiolatry

You know that some people can’t get vaccinated because of medical conditions or age and they don’t deserve to die right? We live in a society and that means doing the slightest bit of effort to take care of each other, because that’s what social animals do. Oh right, this is a libertarian thread.


grrrrreat

Y'all really fail to understand collateral damage.


DistributionExternal

People with Narcissistic personality disorder fail to understand anything that does not impact them directly.


gorwraith

I don't really think people are unsympathetic to the unvaccinated. They're frustrated that walking Petri dishes are out there letting a virus mutate so that vaccinations will be less effective over time instead of helping to control and eliminate the disease. I don't think anyone should be forced to get a vaccine, but it would have been really nice if people had been responsible enough to simply wear a mask for a bit and actually separate themselves instead of all these idiots who just did whatever the f they wanted. They are the ones who are in fact unsympathetic. I think it is far more a violation of the NAP to be willing to infect others with a deadly disease instead of taking minor levels of precaution to avoid it.


Coffee_Poos

When did the "viruses mutate more in the unvaccinated" propaganda point become so popular??


Sidereel

It’s not that it mutates more in certain people, it’s that the longer the virus exists and spreads the more it will mutate and evolve. That’s why as time goes on we see more strains. It’s why it’s important to lockdown and vaccinate quickly.


real_bk3k

You call it propaganda. I call it math. The longer the virus hangs around, the more time it gets to multiply, the more times those dice get rolled. Basic stuff. Vaccination means your immune system is better prepared to quickly identify and fight the virus - and probably destroys it right off the bat. It doesn't get to stick around as long when your immune system destroys it from the start. Again basic stuff. Perhaps it is you who are reading too much propaganda... originating in Communist China - much like their lab grown virus.


hessianerd

It started when Bush ramped up the anti intilectualism as a tactic to protect his financial interests overseas.


bucasben20

Except we still get sick if we’re vaxxed we just don’t get hella Ill and die. And I’m pretty sure viruses only mutate when faced with adversity (like vaccines 😵) not wanting to take a corporations product that people want to mandate to be able to go to a grocery store or be able to work is not a violation of the NAP


hessianerd

You are wrong. Cells have a chance to mutate every time they replicate. Most mutations are small and inconsequential. Some will effect function. It's random, each time they replicate they buy a lotto ticket Selective pressures (the adversities you talk about) favor some mutations over others at which point the proportion of the population with the favorable gene will increase. This is only proportional however, 10% of 5 million is still bigger than 80% of 5000. The more protection (vaccination, masks, lockdowns etc) the more you reduce the likelihood of replication. You reduce the number of lotto tickets the virus buys to turn into something even worse, and believe me it can get even worse than we are now. Feeding it biomass just makes it bigger and more resilient.


h8f8kes

Vaccine mandates are a locus of control that is failing those seeking more power and authority. What happens when you lose the unions or minorities you’ve exploited for decades and have had enough? I would consider this irony funny AF except the authoritarians on the other side will now be gaining power without a NYC democrat keeping the Bible thumping in check.


deathnutz

I'm still very confused. I still see people walking around with masks. I was under the impression that these people were the ones who did not get a vaccination. I was wrong. People that are vaccinated are still wearing masks. I was under the impression that masks weren't to protect the people wearing the masks, but to protect those around you as the masks keep mouth related aerosols from spreading and landing on others. I was under the impression that there are vaccine mandates going into place because the vaccines prevent you from getting covid. Apparently I'm wrong on all fronts here. So, I'm learning that people are getting vaccinations and pushing others to get it yet still wear a mask and say you should wear a mask. They wear the mask because they don't want to catch covid; so wearing the mask as protection to their self now. Which I swear was NEVER the case. The vaccination does not prevent covid but still everyone should be forced to get it...?


Overall_Lobster_4738

The covid Vaccine does not "prevent" you from getting covid. Same as every other vaccine in history. Same way the worked when we learned about them in 6th grade, this isn't the first vaccine ever made or that you most likely have gotten if you've ever been to a public school. You are indeed very confused


ronflair

Let’s face it. The vaccinated were conned into taking a sub par product and since they are legally prevented from taking it out on the politicians and corporations, that leaves the unvaccinated as socially acceptable scapegoats for them to vent their ire on. All encouraged by those same politicians and corporations, of course. I am not “aNtI-VaXx”, btw. I have a few degrees in this field. This particular vaccine should, at most, be administered to the most vulnerable only, ie the elderly and those with certain co-morbidities. Everyone else is fine and does not need it, medically speaking. Biggest cash grab Pharma has seen in a long time and and our MSM is doing us absolutely no favors. I frankly don’t think it’s a huge conspiracy, just simple greed coupled with lowered standards of critical thinking in the media due to shitty education. Seems like it’s a global problem, at least in the Western countries.