By - TheMountainsHigh
I hate the cowboys as much as anyone else but that’s pain
Yeah man. What’s annoying is that there are terrible calls like this every game.. nothing happens to these refs.
What is even MORE annoying is that we have technology that we can see what the correct call should be immediately. Why do we continue to let refs ruin games? Have them on the field to keep the game going, do their calls like normal.. but have a panel that is looking at the replays and signal down to field it is the wrong call.
Have the panel say “uh, they missed that obvious pass interference.. need to throw a flag”
We could have challenged it and didn’t for some incomprehensible reason
NY decided the call, challenging wouldnt have changed anything
The fact that they waited 30 seconds to call it incomplete tells you we were never winning that one.
ur a call
Your mom is a call.
/didn’t mean to go so hard. Sorry.
NY didn't challenge it. Only turnovers are automatically reviewed. It was ruled an incomplete pass on the field so it was 100% challengable.
NY 100% weighed in on that shit. They took multiple minutes, watched the replays on the big screen and THEN ruled it incomplete. The ruling was incredibly late. You really think NY didnt say anything?
There was 0 chance a challenge wouldve overturned
Edit: from a Cowboys beat reporter
NY made the final decision
And they do it all the time, it’s laughable how obvious The NFL is trying to make the playoffs look more even because they just dilute it even more with more shitty teams
NY is the one that said it was incomplete. So theres no point in challenging
It was obvious the call wasn't on the field. The review would have come from the same crew that just phoned down the call.
The refs are big dumb blind stumps paid off by gamblers, we challenge and we just lose it, whether we're right or not.
This is America
This was why i was against legalizing sports gambling. The love of money corrupts every thing. They used it to corrupt congress so they would make it legal too. Wait sorry Congress was already corrupt so they probably didn't have to do much to push it along.
If you don't like it just don't do it. Don't ruin it for the rest of us.
That's clearly not the point, the argument is that once gambling is legalized that it will ruin the the whole sport in of itself for everybody else, regardless of whether one gambles or not.
gambling addiction in the wild
They couldn't have challenged it. NY challenged it
TBF I think that's actually the correct call. He got two steps just as the ball came out and in general you err on the side of incomplete in those situations. Still a really smart play by Neal there.
By the definition of a catch in the NFL that does look incomplete to me as well.
[What about this](https://youtu.be/7Gu8z1GPQQw)?
Because to me that looks like the exact same fucking situation but against us it was ruled a catch and fumble a few weeks ago.
no you see, he turned his body all the way around before he hit the ground.
Really though that is so much less of a catch than this one. Waller started turning upfield, almost got the ball tucked, and took 2 steps before it got knocked out. idk what these dudes are talking about
That one is like absolutely fucking stupid, I would be enraged.
Seems pretty clearly incomplete to me, too. Certainly not an obvious bad call.
That’s fucking dope.
Ngl I hate the catch rule. I feel you can gain possession in less than 2 steps.
Ball in the receiver’s hands, fall out of bounds - catch.
Ball in the receiver’s hands, take two steps - no catch.
How does this make any sense?!?
What I also found dumb was if you make a catch as you’re falling into the end zone, they’ll super slow motion it and have him down at the 1. It’s like how can you establish possession that quick. Had the knee hit at the one then dropped they won’t count that as a catch.
Never agreed with what they call a catch.
He had possession the second he caught it. Perfect throw by Carr and Waller was already taking off.
Ya this is fucking whack, clear possession and making a “football move”-insane to me that this wasn’t allowed to stand.
Guys 50 yds down the field and it's not a catch.
Dez caught it. So did waller
So did Jesse James 😭
Yeah coincidentally Dez Caught It crossed my mind too while watching this live. Felt so similar.
Yes, I don't know what the damn ambiguous shit is.
They're so damn inconsistent with it.
Hell, last season when JuJu got hit, they almost said he didn't have possession and almost decided that this wasn't a fumble.
If the player clearly has the ball in their possession, and they're not like bobbling it or whatever, and do the "football moves" they talk about, then it should be a catch - and this should let it be a possible fumble.
It should be, more or less, this simple, but they can't decide to make this the case.
The one with Juju, I can see that one being called incomplete, he gets the ball and right as he turns his head BOOM. So I don't think he had the chance to make a "football move" whatever that is. In the Waller example, he catches the ball clearly, turns his head, and is two maybe three steps down the field. Total BS call. Like 90% of their calls in that game.
He tucks the ball from his two hand led catch into his right arm. Isn’t that enough.
I guess if you just never tuck the ball, you never catch it.
the thing is, waller almost had it tucked all the way when it got knocked out.
Yeah it's a horrible rule
He had already turned up field and was tucking the ball into his chest like how is that not a catch?
Thing is, he did take two steps.
Which makes even less sense
It's two steps and a football move. A third step is one of the moves that can satisfy the *football move* requirement.
You can argue he didn’t have possession all day but I think it was a fumble and a fucking unbelievable recovery. Not mad at the outcome though, shitty calls are hardly ever in our favor.
Definitely. All those ticky tack ones on the cowboys always go against us. Bengals didn’t even get a penalty until late in the 4th
Reality is that ball stays put if the defender doesn’t touch it
The defender has to make sure he makes a football move before going for the fumble 🙄
This is an underrated comment. If the defender misses the ball and just gets Waller, he goes down with a catch and 30 yard gain. But the defender made a great play and we can’t have that in the NFL…
This would probably be a less vague way to analyze the play than the 'football move' rule. Would it be a catch if there was no defensive play on it?
This one happened last week in the OSU-MSU game. I couldn't find a better replay but the catch wasnt juggled at all before the "drop".
I’m from Australia so obviously have a rugby background and just with those ‘rugby’ eyes, he’s 100% got possession
this is dumb. thats a catch. two hands on the ball and both feet on the ground. not sure how else you are supposed to define a catch.
My whole thing is like why does the word "catch" even need to be further defined. You either caught it or you didnt.
I will never not love Keanu Neal. Hardest hittinest safety in the league
2.5 steps, control of the ball, football move, incomplete pass. The NFL has no idea what a catch is.
The product is dog shit. I will continue to tune in every weekend.
The commercials are miserable to the point I HATE the viewing experience and watch on mute, but I still watch every Sunday.
Referees make wholly subjective decisions, rule with impunity, have far too much impact on the game. There is no flow in the game I love anymore, but I'm going to be on the couch all day starting at 1 PM EST Sunday.
I can’t justify the shit anymore. I know it’s public taboo but I’ve legit just streamed every game I wasn’t at a bar, friends house, or at the game itself since the 2017 AFCCG.
I’m not going to say others should do the same, but I refuse to pay for the shit to come across my own television screen and appall me.
It’s only a fumble when it happens to us
I don’t know why everyone is so confused. 2.5 steps is not a catch. It’s 3. It’s been 3 for years. Do people here not watch football?
No they don't. They just want to complain.
This definitely needs to be added to one of my favorite time killing videos, [Most Amazing NFL Plays that didn’t count](https://youtu.be/nMuus4zioK4)
Shoutout to Nuk’s one handed forty yard under the leg catch
What the fuck is a football move? Can the rules be any more vague?
1) You can't just be up there and just doin' a football move like that.
1a. A football move is when you
1b. Okay well listen. A football move is when you move the
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The ball careieris not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, defender, that prohibits the defender from doing, you know, just trying to get the ball. You can't do that.
1c-b. Once the ball carrier is in the catch, he can't be over here and say to the defender, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna juke you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to catch and then don't catch, you have to still catch. You cannot not catch. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the catch you gotta think about.
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A football move is when the ball carrier makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the football and field of
2) Do not do a football move please.
Did he not get 2 feet down and turn up field?
It looks pretty clear to me that he did.
He caught the ball in stride and had picked up his back foot the moment just before the ball ended up in his hands. He takes one more step and then the ball is punched out. It's a weird timing thing and unless that's a trained reaction to raise a foot as the ball hits your hands, it's just a lucky (or unlucky) break based on the current rules.
Two feet down and tucked the ball, then punched out. You watch the play in real time and it even looks like a fumble. What an early game changer.
He didn’t tuck the ball at all, what are you talking about? He literally held it in front of him with two hands and then had it punched out. The argument that should be made is whether he took a third step or was running upfield instead of finishing his route. Like Romo said, that was pretty much a 50/50 call, I’m just glad to be on the winning side of one of those for once. I get that you’d be pissed over it, especially since it was ruled a fumble on the field, but let’s not make shit up and say that he had tucked the ball away
He did but it’s such a bang-bang play I don’t mind that the refs missed it in real time it really was close. If they reviewed it then came to the same conclusion I’d be pissed.
What confuses me is that I'm not sure that they did miss it in real time. The call on the field was fumble and recovered. Then they discussed it and say that the call on the field is an incomplete pass.
Did they only talk to the refs on the field about what they saw? Or did word come in their headset to call it incomplete? We have seen it a bunch this year, that they have someone watching and directing the refs what to call without actually going to review.
And if that is what happened(which it seems to be), it would be crazy to challenge it. If they just reviewed and told them to change the ruling, are they really going to change it again after the red flag?
I get that they are trying to help, but they also need to be more clear about what the actual call on the field is, and when they are directed to change the ruling.
Ya I think they had the right call on the field at first. NY challenged it and overturned their call for some reason. These refs were bad this game, but this was one call they got right and it was taken out of their hands.
You mean after the second step he took after he caught it. I'm not so sure you saw the replay. He took two full steps after he caught it then it was punched out.
Don't you know they have to lick the referees long nutsack to complete a football move
The first step can be debated as he's gathering the ball. If he gets his foot down right before the ball is punched out for the 2nd/3rd step, it would've easily been a fumble, but the way this played out it could've been called either way, and definitely wouldn't have enough to overturn on a challenge.
BIRD TEAM BAD
Imagine having a qb below 6’
McCarthy’s stupid for not challenging
He knew it wouldn't have been overturned because of the call on the field.
Yeah like Romo said it was gonna go whatever way it was called on the field. I'm surprised they took so long to call it though.
They needed to read the manual from 2014
They forgot who they were having win this game and had to double check.
Only exception would be if it was ruled a fumble and went to the automatic review it might get overturned.
Can someone explain to me how the refs didn't blow it dead until after the Cowboys went out of bounds but the call on the field was still incomplete?
I'm guessing one ref thought fumble, they talked it over with other officials who said incomplete then "upstairs" said incomplete
I think that is what happened. And if it is, it should not be "the call on the field". It should called "after clarification" the call is this. How can you challenge that, if you don't know if the call is based on what the refs saw, or what was seen on video?
They are allowed and encouraged to let the play play out so it can be reviewed. But they can still make a different ruling.
Yep, would cause way more chaos otherwise. That part is fine. Catch rule is starting to reach tuck rule levels of bullshit though.
"Changing the call on the field will hurt the refs feelings" - Riveron, probably
I’ve said this a million times, but we need to stop requiring the refs to make a call on the field. We all know they don’t like to admit they made a mistake, so relieving them of the responsibility of making a call would solve a lot of problems. Hell, if that doesn’t work, allow them to make a call on the field and then not disclose what the call is. Then we could spare their precious feelings.
It looked like that is what happened on this play. They never called the play dead after the ball hit the ground and then intensly watched to see if dallas recovered in bounds. Then they stood around for a while waiting to be told what call to make from NY
now if against the lions i would chance it
While I think it was a catch/fumble, I don't think there's any chance that would have been overturned.
But it costs you a first half timeout if you lose. I think its worth the risk even if its unlikely.
It wouldn’t have been stupid to challenge it because it was so close, but because of the call on the field there was no way it would be overturned and they knew that. Might as well save the timeout just in case.
Not really, it was reviewed in NY so it be the same outcome.
He couldn't. It was challenged by NY. The refs on the field clearly didn't make that call and that is what they told mccarthy
I think it was worth challenging but I doubt they would’ve changed the call regardless.
McCarthy is screwed either way because if he challenges he’ll be criticized for game management when they inevitably take his timeout away. But I think he should have thrown it for his guys
It’s not like he can properly use timeouts so who cares
He should’ve challenged, but it wasn’t going to be overturned.. the refs don’t like to accept they made a terrible call.
Truth. Refs would sooner let a player lie there on the field dead than to admit they fucked up a call.
It's a damn ego thing that we all hate about refs.
It should be...
"The previous play is under review."
"Upon further review, (x). The result of the play is now (y)."
There. Nice and simple. Accountable, and then at least people can say the game was decided fairly.
It should’ve been called a catch and fumble as they let the play go after that.. then reviewed because of a turnover. It was clearly a football move and anyone who isn’t completely against the cowboys sees that.
Nah, let them play out what happens regardless of the call -- otherwise you end up with a bunch of potential turnovers //pick 6s that get erroneously blown dead (see: that happening a bunch of times... either last year or the one before that)
Yeah, then call it a turnover on review to make sure you got the play right. When well over 95% of the announcers and anyone watching the game calls that a catch.. it’s a fucking catch.
I guarantee you would’ve 100% call that to be a catch if it was in your favor
When I was watching the slowmo live I literally said "1 step, 2 ste-oh that's not a catch" -- and it's not like I have any skin in the game.
I was fine with the entire series of events as happened on the field - maybe McCarthy shoulda challenged...? but I think the ball came out without a completed 2nd step, and thus wasnt followed by a football move - so... it's not a catch
If you watched that in slo-mo & came away with the opinion that it wasn’t a catch…you don’t know what a catch is.
The NFL's simplified catch rule:
Requires the player to do three things: Control the ball, get two feet or another body part down, and make a "football move," like a third step/reach reach for the line to gain; or the ability to perform such a move.
He got to the 2nd step and was unable to complete it//could not attempt a 3rd step/football move.
I'm quite clear with the NFL definition of a catch.
In German TV they said you cannot challenge an incompletion (Edit: of the other team).
Can anyone verify this?
It wasn't called an incompletion until after it was reviewed
Could’ve just stopped after stupid
It was apparently already reviewed by the booth so he couldn’t challenge it
As a packer fan, I can tell you for certain that no one is worse with the challenge flag and timeouts than Mike McCarthy.
Doesn’t change my love for the man - he got us a SB. But it was hella time to go
If the shovel from out of bounds goes forward instead of backwards
does the illegal batting rule come into play?
Horrible call. He clearly has full control when it’s knocked out. Refs are effecting games way too much this year.
"clear control" is not what they're looking for though
Yeah we were missing the "move common to the game" there, as catching a football is not a common football move.
How he moved the ball to his body in stride
Yeah I mean I was kidding. Just making fun of the terminology.
As a cowboys fan this was a pretty close one by rule. Could have gone either way, and definitely wasn't going to be overturned.
How the fuck is that not a fumble? These refs this year...
Insanely good play though that should've stood. And the Cowboys should've challenged it.
Eli5 what the 200IQ part of this play is? Looks like a good save to me I don't know what I'm missing
If the fumble went out of bounds, it would have been Raider ball still. By keeping it in bounds until DAL could possess, would have been a takeaway. Normally you don't practice or plan for something like this.
Thanks for the reply. Ita a great play for sure but I don't get how its intelligent lol. Saving it is the only play to make there.
1000% should have counted.
This is a pretty low bar for an "INSANE 200IQ" play.
No way bro, I was sitting here thinking like, oh no the balls gonna go out of bounds and there’s nothing they can do about it, oh well. And then this guy, THIS GUY, is like “uhhh actually I’m a fucking genius and I’m gonna STOP the ball from going out of bounds. Wasn’t even on your radar as an option, was it?” And like I’m pretty intelligent, but I didn’t even think stopping a ball from going out of bounds was a physical possibility, so I dunno man, might even be higher than 200 iq.
For real. For it to be a 200 IQ play the defender should solve a math problem as they're returning the ball and if they don't solve it before the end zone, the score doesn't count.
Happens like ten times a game in basketball. It's a pretty obvious move
I just don’t get why he lateraled back in. He had possession and in bounds with both feet. Defensemen make way too many risky moves on turnovers
Thanks for calling that out. I didn't see that at first but you are totally right, there was no need for him to lateral at all because was fully in bounds when he grabbed the ball. Could have just held onto it.
Guess he didn't think he was in the clear and made that decision a half second before he got there.
Holy shit that was awesome. Fuck the ref who denied this.
I know they don't wanna hear it, but by *the letter of the law*, incomplete pass.
Per NFL rules:
1) You can't just be up there and just doin' a drop like that.
1a. A catch is when you
1b. Okay well listen. A catch is when you catch the
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The ball is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, receiver, that prohibits the receiver from doing, you know, just trying to catch the ball. You can't do that.
1c-b. Once the ball is in the receiver's hands, he can't be over here and say to the ball, like, "I'm gonna drop ya! I'm gonna drop you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to catch and then don't drop it, you have to still do a football move. You cannot not do a football move. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, football movement with the ball, and then, until you just catch it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the sidelines you gotta think about.
1c-b(2)-b. LaVar Ball hasn't been on any NFL teams in forever. I hope he wasn't remembered as an NFL camp body.
1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, he started Big Baller Brand too! That's even worse.
1c-b(2)-b(ii). "If you can't afford the Z02's, you're not a big baller!” --LaVar Ball. Haha, classic...
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A catch is when the receiver makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the football and field of
2) Do not do a drop please.
Thanks I didn't understand the rule on this! You explained it perfectly
It's an altered version of a pasta attempting to explain a balk in baseball, that I found here a few months back lol. Definitely not OC but I die every time I read it
I need a laminated copy of this to hand to my buddies when they're arguing about it
I thought it was clearly incomplete in real time, then again on the replay.
Makes sense to me that he broke up the pass, instead of causing a fumble.
Which fucking letter is that?
The definition of a catch
Isn't tucking it a football move?
Also, turning up field after securing the ball?
Nice YouTube style clickbait title
I mean cricket players have been doing similar sort of things preventing boundaries for years now. I'm surprised there isn't more of this kind of keeping the ball alive plays in the NFL.
Does my head in when at the end of a game instead of chucking out a lateral a player will just take the tackle.
Yea I get that it's not super common but the fact this is called a 200IQ play is kind of ridiculous to me.
bro shut the fuck up
Hahaha nah I'm good eh. Enjoying the Thanksgiving game?
enjoying your season?
It's not been the best season no, but I'm a Bears fan so I've had worse. Very excited about Fields!
Petition to have nfl refs wear cricket ump jackets and hats
Oh I'm all for that. I'd also be in for some bizzaro test match NFL game played over 4 days with the cumulative total of points dictating the winner.
And noon breaks for tea and cucumber sandwiches
petition the refs to be professional refs.
It was about 2 full steps, and the ball was halfway towards a tuck. If he had two steps and FULLY tucked, as in no ball movement and secure up against his body, it’s probably a fumble.
If it’s 3 steps and fully tucked, 100% it’s a fumble. It was like .5 seconds and maaaaaaybe 2 steps, I watched a few times and it’s really close to two steps, or exactly two, hard to tell.
I know we hate the refs and they fuck up A LOT, but this was a no brainer and they got it right IMO.
2 steps and turned up field. That's enough.
The tuck is relevant. Not saying it’s right or wrong, but it’s the rule. Turn upfield, as in the same direction you were going prior to the catch, isn’t a football move.
Turning upfield is absolutely relevant https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/completing-a-catch/
I didn’t say it wasn’t relevant, I said it wasn’t a football move. I hate to get semantic, but turning upfield suggests he wasn’t moving in that direction in the first place.
For example, catch it and turning your body, taking a step and running upfield is a lot different than running straight, catching it in one motion and continuing on the same path, then getting the ball popped.
In the video it does specifically say 3 steps as well, which I know isn’t concrete, but 3 full steps essentially guarantees a catch, whereas 2 without a full tuck definitely is not a catch.
Then why are 2 steps and possession of the ball a catch along the sidelines? Should be no fucking different in the middle of the field.
I can see the argument for that. Not really what I’m talking about though
I think that’s part of the problem tho... seems like there’s different interpretations depending on where the player is, mid-field, side-line, end zone, etc. The one today reminded me of an Adams TD earlier in the [year](https://www.clippituser.tv/c/zpqwyl), similar play, making a catch while turning, getting two feet down then the ball knocked out. If that one was a catch the one today should be too.
The NFL doesn’t even know what a football move is….
Turning up field is a football move. he clearly had posession
Such a horseshit call. If this isn’t a catch then I don’t know what is. He took 3 steps with the ball and made a football move.
All hail the Magic Coin!
This is a normal drill you do in practice as a kid, college, nfl. What's 200IQ? It's usually a fun way to end practice.
The new trend where they just don't whistle the play dead, let it play out, and then claim ruling on the field was incomplete is such an awful thing. You can't have it both ways. Whistle the play dead. This should have been clearly ruled a fumble on the field, and force the offense to challenge for the review, which would have been close to impossible to be turned over.
Letting it play out then contradicting with the opposite on the field ruling is just bad for the game. This year has been better for me personally with ref problems but it's still bad, and this is really bad optics imo, although I don't necessarily think it's a bad ruling, I just think the way they are going about it is wrong, which is going to cause it to be far more controversial than it needs to be.
clearly not a catch
Clearly not a biased POS
How did McCarthy not challenge that
How the fuck did they not challenge this, took away our play of the year
I feel like the rule of cool should have resulted in it counting...
Can't stand Tony Romo as an announcer. "OoOoooOooOo"
Integrity and perception of integrity in regards to officiating seem to be on the down slide for quite some time now. Trend continuing this year on this negative snide. Not a recent development but people have been way more vocal regarding this point of view.
It's 2021,almost 2022 and we still don't know what a catch is.
The ugly catch rule rears its head. Why do fans and NFL disagree on what is a catch so much. Control and move he did both.
Awesome play by defender though.
They did the same thing with an interception to screw the Packers last week. I'm not even watching football right now because at some point I know I'll just get pissed about the officiating.
This is real, just like butt pick.