By - MultiMidden
>Doctors have warned there is "significant risk" in moving him.
I hope the doctors and hospital dig-in and just say NO to the request, this family has caused enough problems for the doctors and nurses for them to be given even the slightest victory.
I highly suspect he won't make it to the hospice due to the amount of medication and machine assistance he is on. It's near enough an impossible mission.
Dying during transportation vs dying in a hospital. I know which I'd rather.
If he dies like this, I wouldn't put it people to say the doctors murdered him.
I wouldn't be surprised if the people caring for him have been shitting themselves about him dying before life-support was switched off, just because the rhetoric suggests they'd be blamed.
I've been aware of his mother and their family's shady past for a while, and the tragic circumstances that led Archie to likely commit suicide.
But fucking hell, I just had a read through all the things they've actually been saying and posting on social media - it's terrifying, incredibly toxic and aggressive towards healthcare providers, harassing anyone who disagrees, and will surely lead to violence unless a strong police presence is around that hospital for when they finally let Archie go.
On top of the ethical conflict of essentially pumping blood around this poor boy's corpse for as long as possible, these amazing staff are having to deal with the worst dregs of society screaming at them whilst they do so. I really hope these people are being supported and protected - I wish there were more public figures speaking out about how unacceptable the behaviour is.
the volume of blood that has been wasted on this corpse is a sin in itself
they used other peoples blood?
Where do you think blood comes from??
The middle isle of Lidl?
My favourite crown dependency
I saw his mum saying he needed blood transfusions on some doxxed social media pic on Kiwifarms. In terms of reputable sources, best I can do is this, which doesn't specify blood transfusions:
"‘inevitably, anaemia adds to the burdens that have been discussed above. It further increases the risk of infection, intestinal disorders, abnormal heart rhythm and low blood pressure. Archie needs blood tests every hour or two to monitor the acids and salts in his blood. He requires intermittent transfusions." [https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Dance-Battersbee-v-Barts-NHS-Trust-and-another.pdf](https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Dance-Battersbee-v-Barts-NHS-Trust-and-another.pdf)
> I've been aware of his mother and their family's shady past for a while
What's the context here?
She has a bunch of convictions and arrests for violence, road rage, ABH, public nudity, that sort of thing. Changed her name from Lisa Pittaway a while ago to "move on" from it. Has also paraded Archie in the media at every possible chance prior to this whole incident.
The poor lad reportedly had many behavioural problems and seemed to be crying out for help, his tiktok username was "painhub". He was found having hanged himself with a cord of fabric from the bannister per court documents, no details of the "online challenge" have ever been provided, there wasn't even a phone Archie was using to record it. The mother's story of what happened has changed several times. You'd think they would want to warn others of this challenge, or provide details so that tiktok could help stop it. The family have been sending direct messages to groups advocating for Archie's dignity, threatening them etc.
Also have been constantly asking for funds when all the legal and healthcare fees are already provided, which could potentially be illegal if they are masquerading as a charity - someone has recently spotted her eldest son on facebook bragging about putting a £12,000 payment down for a holiday in Thailand.
The whole thing is just terrible and it seems like the best interests of Archie have never been the priority.
I can try and understand the indescribable grief they may be feeling. They continue to share graphic images of Archie's body, skinny and decaying in his bed, hooked up to all manner of tubes. The images are heartbreaking, and I have no idea why they continue to post them to the public. But the current behaviour is totally unacceptable, and there may well be an investigation into the threats of healthcare staff, the nature of Archie's death, and also where these funds are going, when this is all settled.
Jesus, what a bunch of cunts
Initially, I thought it was grief, but the more I see I'm convinced she has some kind of histrionic personality disorder.
Plus, I don't see any 'love' for Archie, just this weird, mawkish and possessive quality you get in some dysfunctional/abusive families. It's like a big compensation.
The Online Challenge thing is what I'd heard. I did wonder why there wasn't the usual media uproar about it as there has been for similar "challenges" in the past.
While there are, apparently, asphyxiation challenges online, they're all of the sort that require manual autoasphyxia, not ligatures. The difference being is that when it's your own hands on your own throat, you let go when you lose consciousness. It's safer.
The only time I've ever seen a strangulation challenge that required you to be alone _and_ using a ligature was on an episode of Criminal Minds. And it was set up by an unsub, unsurprisingly.
See that's what I don't understand. The eldest son bragged about it on Facebook, posted pictures of him and his gf (who is a real piece of work btw) enjoying themselves, eating meals, smoking etc. All the while his little brother is going through this right now. If they're so distraught they wouldn't be able to splurge money left and right on a nice holiday.
The narrative on the The Daily Mail & the comments are a world away from this. The comments on Daily Mail are always shocking, but usually there is some mix in there, it’s all just unending sympathy for the mother.
Edit - Actually in today’s article on there there’s finally some people commenting understanding the situation. Yesterday there wasn’t a single one.
Didn't the Samaritans ask them to not say suicide too often and to go with the challenge option?
It can cause triggers in other young people and they don't want to set off a chain of deaths.
maybe so but there's 0% chance that's why she's doing it. She quite clearly is not the considerate or selfless type. She just doesn't want the embarrassment of looking like the vile mother she is.
Geez, when your own child tried to commit suicide to escape you… that’s says a lot about his mother‘s character.
Suicide? I guess it makes more sense than a ticktock challenge nobody's heard of
Supposedly Archie had previously attempted to commit suicide. There are also images of Archie claiming to be depressed on his social media, which obviously has a strong connection to suicide cases.
Meanwhile, the extent of the evidence of it being a "social media challenge" is Ms Dance claiming *"because I said so"*.
As I said suicide make's more sense. It's just I haven't seen any reporting pointing that way
There’s been a global increase in children suicide recently. There was a very depressing piece in the New Yorker about that.
Indeed. There's something not quite right about this woman and her husband.
In terms of getting attention, it's a dream come true for her.
That's all I'm saying.
He’s already dead. Brain is necrotic. There’s no coming back.
These groups have kept bodies born with acrania 'alive' for years. Acrania being basically an empty skull.
A woman in Poland was forced to carry to term a child with no brain, again because of the whole 'heartbeat' crap. Zero chances of survival, no brain at all, she gave birth, the child died and because of the birth complications she can't have any more kids. Yay pro life!
> If he dies like this, I wouldn't put it people to say the doctors murdered him.
That's going to be their response no matter how he dies.
They have already been bandying around the word execution. This situation is sick, the Christian Legal cunts who are egging this woman on, should be absolute ashamed of their callous disregard for the best interests of the child. But they won't be.
He is dead isn't he? It's a corpse being animated by machines.
He has no functioning brain, he's dead.
The whole situation seems odd to me, why was he kept on life support? What part of him is still "alive"?
If his brain is liquid why hasnt he already been pronounced dead?
Because when somebody is on life support with zero chance of recovery they typically tell the family the situation and give them a chance to say goodbye. Most of the time people accept this and make their peace, but on this occassion the family went to get court orders to stop the life support being turned off. The hospital can't turn the machines off while the legal challenges are ongoing.
Ahhh okay, thanks.
So he died then and now it's a corpse being kept warm for as long as possible basically?
Yeah, most hospitals will be almost endlessly obliging for this. If you had family in timbuktu and wanted them present, they'd probably keep them alive long enough for that to be organised. But in this case its clear they want to keep him "alive" until his body literally rots.
The court declared that he was dead on May 31
>If his brain is liquid why hasnt he already been pronounced dead?
Part of the code of practice for diagnosing brain stem death is to remove the patient from the ventilator and confirm they are unable to breathe unaided.
Due to the legal challenges I assume the doctors have been unable to do this, and so cannot legally pronounce him dead.
He’s already dead.
People that keep referring to him dying or being put to death are only drumming up hate for those actually looking after him and playing into the crazy fundamental Christians that are supporting this.
> If he dies like this, I wouldn't put it people to say the doctors murdered him.
They’ve been saying that since day zilch. 90% of these dickheads live in a parallel universe where anything the mother says is absolute, but the doctors and courts are part of some evil, barely defined conspiracy to kill kids and/or steal their organs depending on which family brain cell is doing the thinking.
They where always likely to be in the crosshairs if he died prior to support being turned off, probably will be for 'murdering' him if they do turn off life support as well.
The mum isn't going to pass up an opportunity for more time in the spotlight.
> If he dies like this, I wouldn't put it people to say the doctors murdered him.
The parents and their fundamentalist backers will say that. I don't think it would gain a massive amount of traction otherwise.
He's been dead for two months. The issue is that they'll just be unable to ventilate a corpse further due to moving him.
True my choice of words are incorrect. I don't know what the correct words to use are.
He’s already dead. It’s going to make no difference to him, thankfully.
When my mum was dying of cancer I fixated on hospice care, as she had requested it. She had ended up in hospital and was very up and down the last couple of weeks of her life, I kept being told she was about to die only for her to rally and it seemed like she would just keep going, I also couldn’t objectively grasp her deterioration. A couple of days before she died the palliative team came as I was requesting a move to hospice, it was pure bargaining on my part, she was way beyond consenting to a move and the consultant told me in no uncertain terms that the journey would likely kill her. It’s awful really, I still feel guilty but I was so desperate and sad and navigating it alone, I’m of course grateful the medical staff didn’t let it happen, were firm, and she died peacefully in hospital, god knows what they thought of me.
I'm really sorry to hear that. The staff wouldn't have thought anything bad of you. You were trying to listen to your mother's wishes so no need to feel guilty. Your mother will know that you tried your best to fulfil her wishes but will be understanding that it just wasn't possible.
Thank you for saying that, it’s weird how unable I was to comprehend it at the time considering I’m normally quite rational, but I agree with you that it’s an impossible mission, Archie likely won’t safely make the journey, and how awful would it be for everyone involved to lose him in an ambulance when he could just die peacefully where he is. He’s beyond hospice now and I hope his mum and family can grasp that.
The mother probably want him to die during transport so she can sue them for killing him
It's not going to be happen, but I'd assume that if they did somehow agree to it, she'd have to sign a consent form acknowledging that she understands the risks.
She would likely say they coerced her and that she was lied to and didn't understand the risks
Even today she said this:
>Like I just feel this hospital have so much to answer for and I don’t really know what else to say today.
"So much to answer for"? She's got some bloody nerve. If not for them they wouldn't have had any time to say goodbye to him. But they took that kindness and threw it back in the hard-working staff's faces.
She makes it sound like he went into hospital for a totally different (minor) reason and their negligence left him in this state.
Hopefully there's a thorough investigation into his death when he is finally allowed to go peacefully.
I have no doubt the coroner will order an inquest.
That’s going to be another circus. Coroners are employed by the state to ensure every death is properly handled; they don’t answer to the family. So if (when) the coroner says “PM and inquest”, there isn’t really an opportunity to say “no”.
The thing is, there's no question about how he physically died. But I wonder if they'll do a full inquest into the circumstances surround his death eg where his mum was at the time, how long it actually took before she found him, the events leading up to it etc.
It was an unnatural death so there'll definitely be some kind of inquest, but it's unlikely to be anything substantial, since it was obviously suicide. Normal inquests don't apportion blame which essentially means they're totally spineless and pointless and really don't say much at all. They won't be blaming the mother for not being around or anything.
"feel" no your feelings don't trump medical experts who studied for years to get where they are.
It's the same as anti vaxxer (unfortunately I've got one in the family), who despite being only educated to high school level, thinks she knows more than medical experts and doctors.
Holding experts and intellectualism in such distain really upsets and worries me.
It’s not even always education level. I know an antivaxxer with a professional job and a masters and he won’t get vaccinated because he ‘won’t do what the government tell me to’. Won’t wear a seatbelt for the same reason. Some people just enjoy being contrary.
The request will almost certainly be denied. The question is how many times can she further delay by then appealing *that* decision?
She's requesting palliative oxygen but the boy can't even breathe on his own. Although Hollie keeps insisting tiny fluctuations in the readings of the monitoring equipment proves he's trying to breathe.
Well she'll take it to the Court of Appeal, then the Supreme Court, then the ECHR. So at least three more delays after this one.
Someone needs to threaten their lawyers with sanctions, it's ridiculous.
She already has taken it to the Supreme Court and European court of human rights hasn’t she?
Yeah, but that was for a different complaint, not the hospice issue.
Best case scenario is he passes away peacefully on route to the hospice.
I also wonder who is going to pick up the tab for the 24 hour round the clock care he will inevitably need.
The nhs of course. Even though the mother has allegedly earned about 45k through his just giving
How much does it cost to keep a rotting corpse on life support for several months?
A hell of a lot. Machines and staff aren't cheap, especially with the level of attention it sounds like he has been needing
He'll be dead as soon as they unplug him.
He's been judged as officially dead since 31st May. I am increasingly angry that we are allowing such disrespectful and undignified treatment if a corpse because the mother feels she knows best. Frankly, she can think the moon is made of green cheese, it doesn't make her right. His mother and father continue to show that they are incapable of exercising the duties and responsibilities of parenthood, and it's time to tell them their time in the lime light us over.
What do they mean by significant risk? He's already dead, he has not got a functioning brain.
A risk… he might… die?
In context, he can’t be deemed to meet the criteria of having Gillick competency, so I’d think the parents can still meet parental responsbility for him assuming they have capacity (which, however much you disagree with their decision making, they appear to), thus I doubt the hospital could prevent the parents from moving him to a hospice which would be prepared to accept, however I suspect they may have to organise this privately and there will be limited hospices willing to accept.
If they do move him, I wouldn’t be surprised if he dies in transport, to which dying this way after a long drawn out legal battle during which a patient has been kept alive (I believe) against his best interests, isn’t an ending I’d wish on anyone.
We can sit around and make snide comments about the parents all we want, the parents supporters can sit around and make wild gesticulations about the hospital staff all they want, but ultimately the victim here is a dead child who’s been unnecessarily artificially kept systemically alive, but neurologically dead.
> If they do move him, I wouldn’t be surprised if he dies in transport, to which dying this way after a long drawn out legal battle during which a patient has been kept alive (I believe) against his best interests, isn’t an ending I’d wish on anyone.
Sounds like that would be best for everyone. The child can, at long last, have the peace that the parents desperately want to deprive him of. And him dying in transport after being repeatedly told of the risks mean the NHS staff are protected and parents would finally have nobody to blame but themselves for their selfish actions.
At every stage, her public statements have completely contradicted what her lawyers have said in court, and she changes her position on a daily basis. She wants him to die a "natural death", but wants him kept on artificial life support. She wants him to die with dignity, then plasters photos of his emaciated body in a nappy all over Facebook. Honestly disgusted at her behaviour.
She’s being driven by emotion.
And the problem with that - the reason why doctors are expected to step aside when a loved one needs help - is emotion is a fickle beast. It simply doesn’t respond to reason.
It will pretend to all day long - but as soon as one goal is missed, the goalposts are moved.
She's being driven by the fact that plenty of Facebook huns are more than happy to send money in support. Not to mention the media attention for her inevitable future book release.
>She’s being driven by emotion.
And American evangelicals.
They are stringing this out as long as possible for donations
Donations which she is likely to keep, given her history doing exactly that for failed businesses (see the kiwi farms article)
This is another Captain Tom scam thing 100%
Yep, not that them being all over the place is a new development, but their own arguments literally stand against this.
Her level of contradiction and daily endeavours to try a different scheme...it seems she may just find it impossible to allow that hospital team to withdraw treatment. I don’t know and could be wrong I just think she won’t be told by that team in particular. But hey..she won’t be told by any court...any court anywhere. It is perhaps a perfect storm of the Facebook f**kwits who “do their research” by way of memes and chat rooms and believe in hidden medical agendas and conspiracies
Hospice doctor here (adult, not paediatric). I can't see that any hospice in the land would be able to provide adequate care for Archie, never mind the fact that he us highly likely to die in transit. Hospice doctors and nurses simply don't have experience in managing ventilation, high dose vasopressors, dialysis (if he's dialysed) etc etc etc, and a planned terminal extubation/withdrawal of care is far better done in hospital with the input of the hospital palliative care team (who will have experience with this).
I would also worry that the family would start causing trouble for the hospice - we've already see how suspicious Mum is of healthcare professionals, and I suspect that if Archie deteriorates "before his time" - which is inevitable - Mum and her acolytes will cause a massive stink about it.
It all just seems set up for the family to delay further and cause more headaches for staff, and is definitely not in Archie's best interest any more.
Archie’s mum has gone way beyond reasonable.
And - with the best will in the world - you can’t reason with the unreasonable. If you could, we wouldn’t call them unreasonable.
she uses Emotional arguments
not facts + logic
>there is a Cult of Ignorance....
>this strain of Anti-intellectualism
>is nurtured by the false notion
>that her Ignorance is just as good as your Knowledge
- adapted Asimov quote
Hospices are designed to do the exact opposite of what Archie’s mum wants anyway.
They are designed to allow people to die in comfort and dignity, not to prolong them dying for as long as possible.
Can I ask a question?
From my (extremely limited) understanding, one of the tests that was performed was the doctors disconnected the poor boy from the vent for two minutes to see if he would breathe spontaneously, and he didn't. His mum is not saying she wants him to have palliative oxygen, and I don't see how that's possible. Surely once his vent is turned off, he won't just start breathing on his own, and so the issue of palliative oxygen is moot?
You're absolutely correct. Oxygen won't help him to breathe, and oxygen is only really helpful for treating hypoxaemia (low blood oxygen levels) that are causing symptoms. A common issue in palliative medicine is that many patients and families believe that oxygen helps to relieve breathlessness, which it unfortunately doesn't bar the psychological benefit some people feel from having it on. Archie, unfortunately, won't derive any benefit from it at all.
EDIT: I suppose you could argue that Archie's family will derive psychological benefit from him being given oxygen, and with such a low-harm, low-cost intervention it may be reasonable to give it in an attempt to defuse a very tense situation and make withdrawal of care smoother.
Interesting. Can I also ask a question?
Should he be extubated, is there a chance there might be terminal gasping? My baby daughter had that for a couple of hours after her intensive care was withdrawn. My husband and I were able to see it for what it was: completely involuntary and not a sign of discomfort. Still, it was distressing and I can very much imagine Archie’s family interpreting it as “he’s suffocating”, “he’s trying to breathe, if only they would just help him”, “see, we were right all along”.
Firstly, can I express just how sorry I am for you loss. What a terrible experience for you to have to endure - I'm so sorry. I hope you are at peace.
Regarding your question - It would seem tremendously unlikely that Archie will have terminal gasping (known as agonal gasping in medicalese). Agonal gasps are a brainstem reflex in response to brain hypoxia, and since there is overwhelming evidence that Archie is brainstem dead, those reflexes are no longer going to be present. It's difficult to say exactly what will happen to Archie once invasive measures are withdrawn, but based on the evidence that's been made public, it seems likely that once support is withdrawn he will very quickly experience total cardiovascular collapse and die very peacefully and without distress.
I’m not who you asked, but I am a doctor, although also not a paediatrician.
Firstly, my deepest condolences for your loss. The death of any child is a tragedy. I don’t have children yet myself, and I can’t imagine having to go through a scenario like that.
To answer your question. Terminal gasping (or agonal breathing) is a brainstem reflex secondary to a lack of oxygen. Given the state of brainstem coning and necrosis in Archie’s case I would likely suspect that there will be no agonal breathing. It would still be something I would want to explain to his parents to avoid that misunderstanding that you’ve identified in any case.
I hope that answers your question.
Thank you so much, both for acknowledging my loss and for your clear answer. It’s been 3,5 years since my daughter died. Her initial brain injury was in fact due to medical negligence during labor, something that happens more often than we think. She wasn’t brain dead, though a life worth living was definitely off the table. It’s a different story than what’s happening with Archie. Still, it triggers something in me (and I’m not even from the UK). I’m torn between feeling for the parents and even understanding their anger, be it misguided, because the emotion in itself is a normal reaction to a completely out of the ordinary, traumatizing and frankly heartbreaking and life-changing situation. And then, on the other hand, it’s… too much. They go too far. I want Archie to be at peace (he probably already is, since he’s not alive anymore), and I wish his parents could start their lifelong journey to integrating this enormous loss into their lives. I can only see suffering, on all sides (parents, family, medical staff..). It shouldn’t have to be this way. Was there not a single way to make the communication between parents and doctors as optimal as possible, right from the start? To be empathetic but also very clear. To show scans and explain them to the parents. Things like that.
I do wish the rest of Archie’s body will get the chance to pass away. I wish his loved ones will be able to let him go serenely. What comes after his loss will be unimaginably difficult but it can still be a beautiful and meaningful life for them.
Thank you so much for your response. I keep looking at this poor boy and thinking how sad this case is. And thank you for the work you do. Palliative care is hard and often under-appreciated.
I think paeds hospices can facilitate stuff like this in certain circumstances, when it’s appropriate. Charlie Gard, who went through a similar legal process to this, was transferred to the hospice for withdrawal of care. The hospital refused to provide prolonged ICU support, however, and they withdrew care very quickly on his arrival.
If it’s possible to achieve, there might be a legitimate argument to take Archie and his family away from the PICU to give them a small amount of time in a more “neutral” space, albeit with there being a risk of death en route. Withdrawing in ICU will be challenging for everyone, including the staff. Whether that’s appropriate or safe will vary between cases, and it sounds like it would be more challenging in this case.
Yeah, I have essentially zero experience in the paeds hospice environment so it's entirely plausible that they can do things we adult medics can't/don't.
Entirely fair point regarding moving Archie to neutral ground which may help to facilitate a smoother withdrawal of care. If it's technically feasible and there's a hospice that can meet his needs then it's not a totally unreasonable suggestion, provides everyone is very clear that moving to a hospice doesn't entail continuing invasive intervention. There needs to be a very clear set of expectations that invasive measures will be withdrawn on X day at Y time and that this won't be subject to change or delay due to further legal challenges. It's simply not reasonable to expect a hospice to continue to provide ITU level care whilst further legal faff is going on.
The Mum has previous for this.
Before this she was involved in numerous court cases about getting Archie back in school after he was excluded for 2 years.
The way she posts about this is very telling- the glee about 'going to court', it's all about her winning and barely a mention about her son and the education she was supposedly fighting for.
Then two years later she's doing it all again. I think we've all met people like this, people who for some unfathomable reason love endless wrangling fights that make THEM feel important. What the argument is about is almost irrelevant.
Why was he suspended and were other services involved to keep an eye on him? It must have been incredibly isolating for a young boy to be at home. Was he being homeschooled?
It looks like he was. It's a bit doxxing heavy but there are threads on other sites documenting both his and his mother's social media.
His shows a really troubled kid struggling a lot with mental health and other issues.
Hers is someone who is totally self absorbed and who revels in endless beuaracratic fights. She's also been the subject of local press articles including for violent assault under her old name, she changed her name in 2014. She also went to the Daily Mail in 2014 after Archie received the wrong eye drops from Boots.
Also some more troubling stuff where she's commenting on the size of her oldest sons penis publicly on Facebook.
Its all very weird.
That last one… what the actual fuck?
Yeah, they have (had) some very... unusual conversations on Facebook. It appears almost like her eldest is just trying to be funny and edgy, but at the same time is literally telling his mam to go outside and meet blokes on the corner to do "business" while she was working as a stripper.
I read another where he'd walked in on his parents getting dressed and he'd asked them where his dad finished.
This shit isn't a rabbit hole, it's a yawning gulf of bizarre behaviour.
I get being proud of your son but surely she could have thought of something better than "Yeah my boy has a total fucking hog, you should see the size of this thing. Homewrecker alert!"
Wasn’t even that, they were laughing about how small it probably was
Mother is scared she's gonna lose her new paycheck.
Keep the kid alive and live comfortably of the proceeds.
Kid deserves a clean and quick death, if anyone had.
Then the mother needs to be investigated why she emotionally abused him and socially isolated him to the point where a child commits suicide.
Even in death she's trying to control every aspect of the poor fella, I wonder if it's guilt and shame that's driving her.
I saw her interviewed on TV yesterday. Her hope is that he can die ‘in a garden’ surrounded by birds and wildlife. It’s entirely unrealistic. The poor child has been dead for a long time and his heart will stop as soon as life support is switched off. Whatever happens, she’s going to blame doctors and nurses. Awful situation all round.
Sadly it would seem his parents are detached from the reality of what brain stem death means, so all the things that made him himself are long gone by this point. The idea of his heart to stop 'in a garden' is not achievable and never would have been, his family is desperately trying to gain control of a situation that they are struggling to grasp. There's a dignity in being able to accept when enough is enough.
Ugh. Same script from the ‘Christian’ /vultures as Charlie G.
He can’t be moved. He needs constant medical attention - 17 protocols to keep his body from decaying.
To slow his body decaying. Previous reports say he has necrotic tissue.
Most of his brain is necrotic
And his lungs
Charlie Gard was at least alive on some level.
Stayed up last night and read the court judgment - sorry I can't find the link again, but worth reading it. Very readable for a lay person such as myself and gave a very detailed overview of the case, the arguments and the evidence.
# The Judge has found and judged that Archie Battersbee died on 31st May 2022.
He then found that it is not in Archie's best interests - alive or dead - to receive medical intervention. The Judge decided that the mechanical devices should be turned off, medication should not be given and that resusitation should not be undertaken.
It would help, I think, if we refer to Archie - kindly, compassionately and with dignity - as being dead. He doesn't need a hospice, he is already dead. He shouldn't be transfered to another hospital because he is dead. Further treatments can not be given, because he is dead. He does not need more time to see if his body can recuperate, because he is dead. It cuts through the emotion, to the truth of the matter.
There is no recovery from death.
Here's the first judgement:
Jesus that’s a difficult read. The poor kid.
The mother claims Archie told her (at some point beforehand) he 'would like to be keep on life support' because 'he wouldn't want to leave her'. Good Lord.
Attempting to move him might be the quickest way to bring this entire situation to its natural conclusion.
Well, except for the endless lawsuits against the NHS for "murder".
Nothing says love and compassion more than your family wanting you to die in transit than a comfortable hospital bed you're currently in.
There's an incredibly high risk of that, assuming a hospice would allow the move considering the time and resources to put together a room, put together a care and support package, plus medicines which they probably do not have as it's unusual for a hospice to take a brain stem dead person, or would rather allocate to people still somewhat conscious of stocked to that level (with nurses to administer - not carers).
Just investigate the mother and this pseudo-religious cult masquerading as caring and compassionate. They're the real problem.
He's already dead
>"If they refuse permission for us to take him to a hospice and for him to receive palliative oxygen it will simply be inhumane and nothing about Archie's 'dignity'.
This stopped being about this boys "dignity" a LONG time ago.
My god I feel for the medical staff who will be responsible for the absolute nightmare circus catastrophe that would be getting him to a hospice. How straightfoward does his mother actually think that will be?!
Surely it's obvious that that will be a nightmare fraught with further issues, and Hollie will 100% blame medical staff for "killing him on the way to the hospice". I can completely see her trying to sue them.
> I can completely see her trying to sue them.
I honestly can't. Her religious fruitcake backers will totally ditch Ms Dance the moment Archie's death is registered, and those court cases aren't gonna fund themselves.
The poor kid has been dead for a while, his body is literally going through stages of necrosis and his brain is leaking down his spine. As a father I can’t imagine the heartbreak losing a child causes but fuck me give the lad some dignity.
Facebook is an absolute minefield of religious, uneducated fanatics just enabling this type of behaviour and it’s scary. He’s being used by his cunt of a mother and far right Christian groups.
All I’m reading from what I can assume is 60% bot accounts and 40% humans is “he has a heartbeat so he’s still alive he can pull through, thoughts and prayers.” Given the recent abortion overturning in the US I can only guess as to why she’s being used as a political pawn.
Take him off the machines and let God decide. Oh...he died (again)? Should've prayed harder.
I heard hospices don’t take patients who are 24-48 hrs before death so hopefully they’ll refuse to take someone who’s already dead for all intents and purposes.
You don’t transfer brain dead patients on a ventilator to hospices.
His heart will stop within 5 mins of taking him off the ventilator and infusions because he will make no effort to breathe (because he is brain dead).
He need to have the tubes removed in ITU ASAP with or without his family present and the circus needs to end.
> [Archie Battersbee: Mother says she will give son 'mouth-to-mouth' if oxygen turned off](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/04/archie-battersbees-family-appeal-high-court-allow-die-hospice/)
Is this woman actually delusional?
I'm so sick of all the sympathy towards her. "Oh it must be so hard, she's driven by grief and emotion". No. It's beyond a joke now, when is enough enough?
How many judges? How many courts? How many appeals?
The comments that piss me off the most are those claiming *"she's just doing what most mummy's would do!"*.
Multiple children are lost on PICU wards every single day. Parading the nappy-laden carcass of their child through the media, abusing staff and public alike, and spending nearly all of the time speaking to the media and chasing money instead of at the child's side is **not** something most of those parents do.
One of my big beliefs is that we all have bad things happen to us in life but those bad things don't excuse bad behaviour. Because if every person going through something behaved like this society would breakdown.
> "On whether this might be because the hospital believes it can give Archie the best care, Hollie Dance said: "They haven't given Archie any care, so no it's not."
Is she for fucking real?
They’ve literally kept him “alive” (in the loosest sense of the word) for four months. I detest the woman. I can’t imagine the pain she’s going through but how much longer is this going to go on for?! When his skin is sloughing off as nurses bathe him? She’s vile.
Read in another publication that predictably, shes surprised she isn't allowed to be alone with him without a medical professional present at all times. After letting anyone in there, threatening to manually intervene and mess with his body when life support is removed on top of threatening to sue everyone and their dog...
Grief maybe, but absolute lunacy at best.
One of the earlier rulings said that Archie has constant 1:1 nursing, and occasionally 2:1 nursing. From what I've read, 1:1 is the least you can expect in a paediatric ICU.
I’ve got a child and honestly, I can’t begin to even imagine it and I hope to God I’m never in that situation… but at some point you need to accept he’s gone. So many people around her are enabling this madness.
Same. Absolutely couldn't parade them on social media like this in any state. I hope Archie does manage some shred of dignity when his body can finally rest, he's been robbed of it since he chose to hang himself. Poor poor lad.
If this goes on, she's in for even more pain when one day his body simply collapses, and instead of 'dignity' she will face a truly macabre grotesque Victorian style.
It's worth re-iterating that even using the word 'alive' is wrong. He has been ruled by a judge as dying on the 31st of May. Corpse reanimation would perhaps be a better description.
I hope every hospice refuses to accept him, even if the courts allow it. Let the poor lad just go in peace.
>"If they refuse permission for us to take him to a hospice and for him to receive palliative oxygen it will simply be inhumane and nothing about Archie's 'dignity'."
She has to be taking the piss, talking about his dignity when he has been effectively dead for ages, but still dragged though the courts and media all so she can get her time in the spotlight. If she cared about his dignity, she would accept there is nothing that can be done for him and she would spend as much time with him in the hospital as possible, with no media statements or interviews. She would simply release a statement after saying at X time life support was turned off and then leave it at that.
She certainly wasn't thinking of the poor lads dignity when she's putting photos of him in nappies on the Internet. Poor boy.
What is the point of oxygen if he has no functional brain stem to trigger even a single breath. The woman is unhinged
These are not the actions or behaviour of a Mother who is safeguarding her child or putting his needs first nor has his best interests at heart. This morbid fiasco needs to stop and Archie deserves peace and dignity. You do not own your children, they are human beings in their own right not chattel or an extention of their parents.
This is not about Archie anymore and I wondering if it ever was, Mum is doing a stellar job of making it all about her, her feelings and sticking it up to authority because she can't take the truth, 'No' or 'losing' or is just trying to get one over on the hospital who have looked after her child to what sounds like an excellent standard since April.
I feel for the hospital staff who have had to care for a child's corspe for 4 months to appease his Mother's( and Family's) feelings, threats and wants. I also feel sympathy for the sick and dying children and their families who have had to put up with all this as they are unfortunately in ICU with her/her family/media circus. I hope she sees sense and starts to spend time with her son rather than constant court appeals/ appearances,posting bile on social media and doing the same regards TV interviews on the news and elsewhere but I'm sure she will not. I feel she is using the extremely dubious Christian Concern as much as they are using her so she is far from a 'victim' of them in that respect.
At this point it feels like a fucked up documentary waiting to happen. I hope that one day we hear the medical staff about their experiences and feelings with all this. This must be bordering on, if not outright potentially traumatizing for them to have to continuously care for a rotting corpse, while facing the aggression from the mother.
I don’t know if I could even work in that field again after this
This is the treatment that Archie Batterbee is on
Standard treatment and care practiced in a neuro-intensive care with round the clock care provided by 1:1 and at times 2:1 nursing (heavily dependent)
Continuous and invasive monitoring to allow target of haemodynamic parameters (monitoring of blood pressure, heart rate and urine output and treatment targeted to keep them within a standard range known to be safe)
Oxygenation and carbon dioxide clearance by the ventilator (breathing machine) as he is unable to breathe for himself
Routine neuro-critical care respiratory management (standard patient positioning, turning, clearance of secretions by suctioning and physiotherapy of the chest)
Regular turning and care to prevent pressure areas developing and bed sores
Regular cleaning and changes to prevent skin breakdown
Support of the blood pressure with medications as needed
Treatment for chest, blood or other infection with antibiotics as required
Continuous Vasopressin administration to control water balance and salt balance within the body based on hourly urine output
Fluid boluses due to large uncontrolled urine output despite treatment as needed
Feeding via a tube into the stomach to give nutrition as tolerated
Loperamide treatment to slow down the passage of food through his gastrointestinal tract due to diarrhoea secondary to gut failure associated with brain failure
Administration of glucose to prevent low blood sugars as needed
Electrolyte disturbance corrections, particularly potassium, (body salts kept within a safe range by regular replacement)
Active warming to prevent the body getting too cold as needed
Steroid replacement and thyroid hormone replacement (hormone replacement needed due to brain damage)
Prophylactic treatment to prevent deep vein thrombosis (clots forming in blood vessels)
Good luck in finding a Hospice that can do all that
Hospices do not take ventilated patients with invasive monitoring/central access and continuous infusions of vasopressin. I simply don’t believe she’s telling the truth that a hospice have said they’ll take him
The trust had behaved impeccably, but they need to let the moral high ground go at this point and inform the family that without a court order preventing them from doing otherwise they’re immediately setting a time to remove artificial interventions.
but when the hospital previously offered to move him his Mum said he'd die in transit and now claims the hospital are holding him hostage and preventing a dignifeid death. fuuuuuuuuuucking hell
Incorrect. The hospital have never offered to move him out of the hospital. At one stage his parents objected to him being moved internally for a MRI scan due to the risks involved.
ty for correcting
There is an ongoing Police investigation which started 11th April. With the recent spate of child cases over COVID I wouldn't be surprised if there is much more to this than meets the eye. The desperation to keep him "alive" maybe borne out of the knowing that no investigation will conclude before a post mortem. She's so desperate to engender the idea this was TikTok but her narrative copies exactly that of a girl in the US who died.
I'm not accusing her of anything I'm just saying there are some immense questions that need to be answered before this is ruled accidental, misadventure or suicide. The judge did not rule it an accident, it was accepted in the absence of other evidence (ie post mortem) that it was. The is no current cause of death.
With COVID and Archie's ADHD issues meaning no school he had no professional oversight for 4-5 years before this happened. That's a long time for his home life to have been potentially problematic. Her behaviour has been strange and I'm sure the Police will want to interview all involved at a time deemed compassionate.
It might all be very innocent and she is simply an incredibly distressed mother fighting for her child's life, however futile that is.
They're proposing moving a dead body that they're artificially respirating. He'll lose any vital signs the minute they take him off life support.
I think they are expecting the entire hospital staff they have been slating to assist in the transport... when they were suggesting people "would help" in Turkey or JAPAN, its utter fantasy.
Do planes like that even exist? Full ICU to fly to the other side of the world???
Meanwhile, all the other very sick ICU children just have to wait for the afternoon while everyone attends to transporting Archie.
I'm actually curious what his family think of the other patients. They have never mentioned them once. It's all about them and THEY'RE son. Do they think the doctors are trying to "exercute" the other children too? Do they think it's a personal vendetta against just them?
That womans a vile human being - that poor poor lad should not of been put through this shit show.
His body is actively decaying. It's fucking disgusting.
I can't find any rationale for subjecting your child to something likely worse than death and prolonging the inevitable.
I agree. Imagine this absolutely sordid fate being how you're remembered. It's horrific.
I'm truly baffled as to why it's even allowed to carry on at this point. I feel for the staff who are having to witness this shit every day
Do you think they’ll be an investigation into why he did this/looking at the social media involvement? I imagine it’s still quite rare in this country for a child of this age to do what he did. I’d want to know if I was his parent.
I think they did look in to TikTok trends at the time and there were none. Sadly the very likely reality is that he was a deeply depressed child who committed suicide. I haven't looked myself, but people have said that his TikTok account name was something like Painhub and most of his social media activity suggested he was pretty depressed. He'd been excluded from school, home schooled for two years and sounds like he was pretty isolated with a complete narcissist mother with a pretty shady past. I've read that he even had a practice run the day before (not sure how much truth there is to that!).
Also her stories of how/when she found him seem to keep changing. She says he was found around ten minutes after he had hung himself but I guess the damage to his brain suggests it was a lot longer than that. So who knows where she was and what she was doing. Either way he was left alone for long enough to hang himself in a communal area of the family home and not be found for some time.
Some people have been saying that's one of the reasons (in addition to money) for this fight, to avoid having to face the truth and if the internet is to be believed there's one heck of a load of truth that is going to come out...
Social media - there is no evidence that he saw this challenge on TikTok, other than what the mother has said, and she has changed the story about what happened on that fateful day.
That’s what the coroner would do right? There really is no evidence at all for the social media theory. It’s just something his mum threw out there out of thin air.
When Archie is finally allowed to rest, you can bet it won't be in peace. She'll no doubt claim the hospital staff murdered him and try to kick off another tedious circus of court hearings to get compo money.
At the risk of sounding incredibly insensitive the family just need to accept that it is literally impossible for him to recover and that he is dead, as difficult as that may be to take, and right now by keeping him on life support they’re taking up valuable hospital equipment, space and time that could be used for another patient who may have a chance at recovery.
Quick question, if we took a freshly passed away human, who everyone would confirm is dead, then strapped them to all the protocols that Archie is on, surely that dead body’s heart would start beating, lungs “breathing” and so on, but nonetheless that person is already dead, would it not be the exact same case with Archie? And this is simply denial taken to the extreme
Yes, exactly. Previously we only classified death on full cardiovascular failure, but modern medicine is so good we can overcome that. Hence the secondary type of death we call "brain death".
“Archie’s brain stem is squashed into the top of his spinal cord. Some decaying parts of the brain are seen to have dropped down Archie’s spine and to be sitting in the lumbar region of his spinal cord” - reading this from court Im not even sure a hospice would take him
One would wonder how anyone could be transported while on every form of life support to another location.
Family and Christian Groups pushing this nonsense are attention-seeking lunatics.
So glad I found this thread of comments. This whole situation has bothered me and I can finally pinpoint why I feel as though I dislike his family but with nothing concrete to explain why!
There should be a law against psychotic child abuse
This has become more "defiling a corpse" than anything. You'd have to have a living kid for it to be abuse.
I get the feeling the parents almost want him to die on the move so they can scream murder
When is it time to consider that this mother needs to be sectioned or the like? Keeping a son as a living corpse surely is some sort of mental illness after so many months
What are the odds of this succeeding? Because with what we've heard about his state, I wager this hypothetical victory would be hollow since he'd likely be dead before he made it to the hospice at that rate, meaning that we might actually see an end to this shitshow.
Either way the end is imminent, his mother is just prolonging it and making it as difficult as possible for everyone involved. I've lost my sympathy for her this morning (as a mother of a gorgeous little boy myself). Attempting to move him to a hospice for a dignified death is not dignified at all. It is not in his best interests to move him.
Family just trying to give the illusion they’re trying tooth and nail for their son. Now though, it’s all about being as difficult as possible to spite everyone. “We’ll do what you want but we’ll put you out dramatically doing it.”
Disgusting from the family, let the boy go in peace. Disgusting from the big hats with the power to stop this charade. The law needs to change after this spectacle.
Even in death he can’t escape her. What a nasty vile woman
Lay your boy to rest and grieve for him for goodness sake.
She reminds me of that mom who kept poising her kid to make them sick and get sympathy + donations
Wonder what happened to that case
If it's the case I'm think of the kid killed her mum.
Archie's mother better make very very sure that she doesn't put a foot wrong after this episode is over because the tabloids will be out to crucify her. Especially when it comes to the money that's been raised.
Tabloids are not on her (or anyone's) side, they will switch the moment they smell a more juicy story, so she's playing with fire.
Not even dignity in death… poor little sod, deserved a better family
Don't you have to be alive to do hospice? He's not alive.
I don't understand what his parents are trying to accomplish.
Just let him pass on and be at peace.
Holy shit these fucking people.
I don’t understand how a hospice will make a difference? I assumed it’s a quick switch off and then immediate death. Why would it matter which bed he’s in? For the comfort of the parents? After a stressful moving process?
Oh there’s benefits, for the mother anyway:
1) further stress and difficulty for the people who’ve been caring for his deteriorating body for the past 4 months.
2) further unproductive delays to his treatment being withdrawn.
3) potential he could die in transit, which could be blamed on the above staff.
4) potential to rope in medial professionals and dying patients at a hospice.
5) more sympathy points for having her unrealistic wishes denied.
His mum is essentially saying the hospital and the staff are evil and so she doesn’t want him to die there because of her bad experiences.
She’s behaving awfully.
At this point the mother is just abusing a corpse.
It’ll be interesting to see how she’s received on the streets of Soufend when the inevitable happens and she has to return home. I’d bet money on her getting a battering in the first week, the vile bitch.
I had sympathy for them initially. I can not even begin to imagine the pain of loosing a child.
But fuck me. The kid is literally going to fall to pieces in the coming weeks. This isn’t about dignity anymore.
Glad of this thread. As a healthcare worker, my thoughts are of a kind that can't reasonably be said in conversation outside the home, let alone on social media, but I'm glad other people have seen it.
Just imagine being part of this Critical Care team, having shouldered the absolute worst of Covid, then having to deal with this. The nurses going into handover every morning must be praying to be assigned to any other patient.
The Christian Legal Centre is something else.
The only move Archie needs is into a coffin. Not another penny of taxpayer money should be spent on this madness.
Not only would the poor kid probably not even make it there, but has any hospice even agreed to take him?
I know that if I ran a place like that, where other people have gone for peaceful care near the end of their lives, the very last thing I would allow anywhere near the premises would be this particular circus. It's not as though it would be any help to Archie either - he's long gone, poor kid.
My sympathy has run out at this point.
The drain that, for all intents and purposes, this dead child (or I should say, the parents of) has put on the healthcare system is unforgivable at this point. The mental anguish the doctors and nurses that are keeping Archie’s corpse “breathing” have and continue to go through. The abuse by the “Christian” lawyers representing the family. The whole lot of it is disgusting.
Let him fucking rest in peace.
He’s been declared legally dead. The question is whether moving him to a hospice serves any purpose, is in his interests or having had regard to his right to dignity. I think the answer is pretty obvious where there are such massive challenges in moving him. I feel sorry for the family - their background is of limited if any direct relevance - though they clearly have significant issues and are behaving in what (viewed objectively) is a completely unreasonable and frankly deluded way. But frustrating as it may seem, everyone is entitled to be treated fairly and equally before the law. I think their latest application is “totally without merit” in the legal sense (and should have been raised when the family made their initial application) so hopefully, routes to further appeals will be cut short, now that the substantive issues have been resolved.
Just let the lad go. It's fucking awful but enough is enough
She just needs to stop. The doctors know what they're doing they've had years of experience. If they say he's dead.... he's dead.
Reminds me of the Alfie Evans case. The parents and their supporters put the doctors and nurses through it, and distressed other patients too
As bad as it sounds he is already dead. There is no active brain stem and his body is being kept alive by a machine. Take him off the machine and see how long he will last.
I feel sorry for the parents, but they need stop their emotions driving them.