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Exciting-Present857

Who enjoys killing animals? just play a video game where you shoot them or something idk


itachen

I was a hunting game developer before turning vegan. We did a lot of Youtube watching of hunts and I remember being so enraged by it I spent half of the time debating in the comment sections with hunters what is ethical. What stood out to me were the unnecessarily killings ie., long distance sniping of a trophy buck off a cliff that they were never going to retrieve, and a couple hunters putting themselves in danger killing a mother bear and leaving orphan cubs. Afterward, they were so high. IMO it's a disgrace to humanity. For my portfolio, I compiled the hunt animations into a video with sad music. The experience helped me choose the right path today.


veganactivismbot

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Lilmonster27

Agree! It’s hideous. People who hunt! Any animal.


k1410407

ARK. That's all people do in ARK. You can enslave, breed, brainwash, commodify, and weaponize them. All in one. Instead of shooting them you eat them up with dinosaurs and dragons.


RealSibereagle

I name all of my dinos, will set free the ones I'm not using, and the ones I have, I have a massive area of The Island sanctioned off for a free roam safari kinda thing. I'm nice to my dinos


k1410407

That's pretty cool, I want to use one of the modded maps as a Jurassic World. It is impossible to play the game without killing though.


shockingnews213

Yeah I mean as long as nobody literally gets hurt, I don't care what you do in a video game.


UpwardStatue794

Red dead redemption 2


agitatedprisoner

Sounds like Pokemon.


Mankayy2250

Old me, apparently. (Ex-hunter, now vegan) I was raised on a farm, and hunting/guns was just something you did. I guess it just tapped into a very primal feeling that I can’t really put my finger on. Enjoyed it until one day I didn’t, and haven’t looked back since. But I do empathise with hunters in the same way that I believe most vegans empathise with people that represent their past self, whether that’s someone who hunted, or paid someone else to do it for them.


jml011

My suggestion for folks who’d bemoan the loss of hunting as hobby would be to pick up animal photography. Gear is equally expensive and you get to spend all day sitting in nature in shitty weather just to maybe get that perfect shot of a wild creature, and you still get to hang it on your wall as a trophy. Boom.


oneawesomeguy

Maybe birding is for them


glum_plum

And with the telephoto lenses needed you still get to haul around a phallic device if that kind of thing does it for you!


zb0t1

Look at you, you magnificent bastard, you came in clutch when needed <3 I never hunted but honestly I love nature photography etc so I'm glad I saw your comment so I can tell this to my uncle who hunts next time he's gonna ask about veganism!


OnlyIce

my friend got their hunter dad to go vegetarian and take up photography, he still stalks animals but now he just shoots them harmlessly i totally get the appeal of spending a day out in the woods and watching large animals closely, sucks that those activities usually come with guns


No_beef_here

I wonder how much of the hunting that is done for fun rather than need continues because of the exact same reason many 'still' eat meat, even if they had no desire or ability to hunt it themselves etc and for the reason you stated, because it was considered normal / acceptable at\_that\_time? Over here (UK) where what most describe as 'hunting' isn't so prevalent, many people go coarse fishing. Fishing is something I was introduced to as a kid by my Dad, who had never been fishing when I was alive, and I got into it a bit, more for the gadgets and equipment than the fishing as such. When I took time to consider what I was doing, tricking a hungry animal with food and then dragging it out of it'd environment into one it would quickly suffocate in via a hook (barbed in those days) though it's face, I stopped fishing. And you get the same old BS justification from the fishermen today as you get from the carnists .... 'we often treat the fishes injuries and put them back in a better condition' when I'm pretty sure the fish would rather be left the fcuk alone. But the arrogance of the assumed right to interfere with animals and other peoples and cultures (something I'm highly embarrassed about, especially being a 'Brit') seems to be something that is only now starting to be seen for what it is, unwanted and wrong. Too little too late? ;-(


Lilmonster27

Agree! Hunting is disgusting, cruel, selfish, unnecessary, and in my opinion pretty psychopathic. Shoot some skeet or bottles or go play paint ball.


T8ertotsandchocolate

My sister was in the early stages of dating this guy and she said he was going deer hunting with his family (common activity for them). Apparently he said it wasn't unethical because they "used the whole deer." I said that's one specific part of hunting and ignores all the other parts. She's not vegan and I told her that I didn't think hunting was necessarily any worse than buying meat, but the fact that this person's hobby was to kill animals by his own hand and watch the life fade from their eyes scared me. Ignoring ethics, what kind of person WANTS to do that? Why is that what he wants to do as a hobby? To me that's a huge red flag. Their relationship wasn't going anywhere anyways, but she did agree with me.


emimagique

I really hate the "use the whole animal" idea


evening_person

I wonder if they think Ed Gein or Jeffrey Dahmer were more respectful than other serial killers because they made sure their victims didn’t go to waste?


emimagique

Lmao yeah exactly. Or if someone killed their cat/dog and ate it would that be fine?


T8ertotsandchocolate

I once had a co-worker tell me that she "didn't believe" me when I said that factory farms were terrible for the environment because she knew someone who worked at a factory farm and they told her that they use the whole animal. Bitch what does that have to do with anything? She also chastised me for putting soy milk in my coffee because "soy is the most genetically modified crop". First of all, what does that even mean? Second, why would that even matter, if true. And third, she was a fucking smoker! Not a smart woman.


No_beef_here

Only as a very vague parallel, I believe it's often the case that psychopaths that end up torturing and killing people for fun, often started on animals.


vegan_1974

My soon to be ex-husband does. He claims he doesn't like any other hobby. Imagine the horror on his face when I called him a psychopath. #goodbye


No_beef_here

With 'goodbye' being the right answer. ;-)


drunkboater

You didn’t know his only hobby until after you were married?


vegan_1974

We turned vegan together after marriage....well, he was pretending. His words that it's his only hobby. Not mine.


dannysview

Why stop at that? Why would I shoot animals in video games, when I can shoot people in video games? =]


PurpleFirebolt

I play deer hunter. It's relaxing.


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greatwalrus

Listen, some people don't *want* to kill animals, they just like going out in the woods, feeling like they're one with nature, waiting patiently and quietly for a beautiful animal to show up so they can line up their shot and bring home a majestic reminder of the occasion... Those people are called wildlife photographers.


Antin0de

If only they could find a way to market wildlife photography to fragile males with an inferiority complex. Until then, it'll struggle to compete with guns.


neuralbeans

We just need to make gun shaped cameras that look like something Rambo would carry and give them masculine names like Photon Obliterator or something. Oh amd they probably need to make loud noises as well.


No_beef_here

Now, if they faced their 'prey', naked and with the weapons they were born with that would be fair game, after all it's the rules most of the other animals have to play by if they think what they are doing is in any way 'natural'? But AFAIK, a tiger doesn't sit in a camouflaged hide, 30' up a tree and kill a bear (sometimes part of a research project and wearing a tracking collar) from 200 yards away, they would have to get down and dirty. What the big bold hunters are doing is actually cowardly and sick and as you say, might indicate they are lacking in other areas. ;-)


greatwalrus

That's a good point, I'm not super masculine so sometimes I forget that I'm supposed to tell other men how big my genitals are by killing animals.


No_beef_here

'Real men' protect weaker beings from harm, not exploit them.


fnarpus

Exactly Just like we expect dog fighters and zoophiles to just... do something other than that.


Severe_Concentrate86

Yeah, it’s too bad there are many folks in the comments saying shit like: “hunters keep population of animals in check, therefore reducing vehicle wrecks, etc.” as if that’s their responsibility or something? If they care about that so much I wonder what they think about wildlife bridges over roads? Lol


grungusflungus

Maybe if you didn't decimate the wolf population, earl, there wouldn't be an overabundance of deer.


ThisBlank

We kill all the natural plants, and predators in order to make room for animals we kill for food, and for crops to feed them, then we use poison and farm tools to kill all the smaller animals like rabbits, gophers and mice that the predators used to eat, and hunt to kill the larger ones because without the predators they become overpopulated. The carnist solution to everything is more killing.


grungusflungus

Interestingly enough, that's also their gun violence solution 🙃


ThisBlank

That's one you really know they haven't thought through. Give EVERYONE a gun. Ok, so a shooting starts. Everyone else pulls out a gun? So now everyone has a gun out and is looking for the shooter, but there are people holding guns everywhere. And these aren't soldiers in uniforms, they're normal people in whatever they happened to be wearing. It doesn't take a genius to figure out someone is going to round a corner or just find someone suspicious, get scared and shoot the wrong person. Now anyone who saw that thinks they're the shooter, and people are hearing gunshots in more than one direction. Pretty soon instead of one person shooting up the place, you have a hellish confusion of guns going off everywhere with no idea where the original shooter is. On top of accidents like missing and hitting a different person, or shooting through a wall and hitting someone else.


Tetraplasm

That would require thinking. The people who have the opinion that "more guns" is the solution aren't capable of thinking. They've had their thinking done for them, by Fox news (etc.). And the people on those platforms who are doing the "thinking" for them are just spouting lies paid for by people who would stand to profit if more people believed their lies. See: animal agriculture, guns, fossil fuels, bigotry, religion, unnecessary wars over \[fossil fuels, precious metals, fake gods, etc.\]. All of it is just nonsense and evil being paid for by people who stand to profit off it.


komfyrion

We use coloured armbands in airsoft for a reason, lol.


ThisBlank

Yeah, even then you might know who the team members are. In this situation you wouldn't know if the shooter is a teen or adult, could be any description. So even more, it's going to be mad confusion trying to improve the situation if a whole crowd of random people all pull out guns. Picture like the florida night club shooting. It's a dark nightclub, someone starts shooting, half the crowd pull out guns and start trying to take out the shooter. The death toll from panic and confusion would be off the charts. Vegas shooting. Some guy is shooting down at the crowd, half the people on the ground start firing up where they think he might be, in this hypothetical world almost everyone has a gun, so people in the hotel who can't see sideways across the rooms just see a crowd shooting up at them. So they pull out guns and start firing down at this crowd of attackers. I really feel like they haven't thought this through. It's not going to be like a video game where there is a big colorful marker floating above the shooter's head.


khadrock

Omg I know right, this "solution" takes like 3 minutes of critical thinking to see why it would just make things worse, and yet they just keep repeating it!


No_beef_here

It was funny (well, sad really) that they were congratulating themselves for re-introducing wolves into the Yellowstone Park and how it brought 'a balance' back to nature, controlling the deer numbers ... No sh1t Sherlock, given we removed the wolves from the park in the first place we shouldn't be patting ourselves on the back but punching ourselves in the head for our lack of foresight and understanding. We are the 'superior species eh ... we are also the only one to contaminate and destroy the very environment we need to survive and the only species that if we left the planet would leave \*everything else\* better off. ;-(


jml011

I wanted make a snarky follow-up like “maybe we need to keep the human population in check!”, but given recent events, that might be interpreted in a very different way than I intended.


Tetraplasm

Yeah, the fascists want to do that, they just want to do it by forced birth causing people to become impoverished into homelessness, whereafter they can be treated as "sub-human"\* and ignored when they starve to death. \*telling that people think of homelessness as "dehumanizing", as if only humans have the right to have peaceful lives. Fuck all the animals, they can suffer if it makes me happy!


Sir_Meliodas_92

That's just a huge lie anyway. There are tons of studies and data on that topic. Many of which I have read, not only as an ecologist but as someone trying to write a book about the harm hunting has done and continues to do. Hunters don't keep populations under control, at all. They cover far less ground than natural predators and kill far less individuals, which means the population just stays as large as it was. Or, they begin hunting a population that is low in numbers, and they decimate it by taking 50%+ of the individuals (that would be like killing 4 billion humans in one go). There is no in-between. They do lots of other harm to the ecosystem too. But, I have a books worth of information so I'll just stop there.


vtme2007

Could your provide one of your fav books or reference on this topic? I find it very interesting given how my neighborhood hires hunters to reduce the deer population. I am also interested as to how the introduction of predators affect the ecosystem.


CelestineCrystal

im curious to hear more on the topic


Sir_Meliodas_92

Is there a particular part you're most interested in. I have things about the historical damage hunting has done. Things about the genetic changes associated with hunting versus natural predation. I have the articles about the changes to the Yellowstone ecosystem when wolves were reintroduced. I have a books worth of stuff, so, it would be difficult to post it all in one comment.


CelestineCrystal

anything you feel like talking about i guess. maybe the historical damage.


Sir_Meliodas_92

There's a lot in that category, so I'll give some. Hunting, historically, caused even more damage than now. People didn't know as much (if anything) about ecology, historically. So, they made decisions based on incorrect information, or didn't consider ecological effects at all. I don't have a link for this, because it's a book. But there is a book called "Wildlife and Wilderness" by Philip Terrie. It focuses on the Adirondack Region of North America, but the first chapter explains how wolves were extirpated (locally extinct) from North America by European hunters because they feared that the wolves would eat all of the deer. Which is why the deer population is out of control in that area, even now, something like 100 years later. This paper talks about how, in the past, big horn sheep were specifically hunted to try to take prized individuals who had the biggest horns. This actually lead to the overall horn size in the population decreasing. This effects both the sheep's ability to fight and defend themselves, as well as attract mates: [https://www.jstor.org/stable/3830515?seq=1#page\_scan\_tab\_contents](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3830515?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) This book has a chapter about how sea otters were historically hunted for their pelts. This caused the population to drop dramatically (nearly extirpated), and they still have not fully recovered. They are also having a hard time recovering because they now lack genetic diversity, since they had to recover from very few individuals. Sea otters are important in ecosystems too, as they eat the urchins which destroy kelp forests (they are the predator that keeps urchin populations in control). This allows kelp forests to grow, which provides habitat for other organisms and keeps the ecosystem healthy: [https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mlU37uRbvmcC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=california+sea+otter+and+hunting&ots=4uTf8DsTtx&sig=jOg1AyQVSBxejZVe2dzHh5zR6x8#v=onepage&q=california%20sea%20otter%20and%20hunting&f=false](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mlU37uRbvmcC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=california+sea+otter+and+hunting&ots=4uTf8DsTtx&sig=jOg1AyQVSBxejZVe2dzHh5zR6x8#v=onepage&q=california%20sea%20otter%20and%20hunting&f=false) This paper talks about the genetic diversity of the otters before the fur trade. They found that otters before the fur trade had twice the amount of genetic diversity as current day otters. Genetic diversity is important in general, but especially for recovering populations. Greater genetic diversity can prevent the population from all dying to disease or having deleterious alleles accumulate in the population (there is a lot of research on the otters and fur trade damage): [https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0032205](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0032205) This paper talks about how hunting whales, combined with changes in climate caused the whale population to drastically drop and that drop changed the structure of the entire marine ecosystem: [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-8369.1999.tb00317.x](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-8369.1999.tb00317.x) Let me know if you want more on this topic, or something on another topic :) Or if you want a more detailed explaination of anything in this comment.


loquedijoella

They have to “keep population of animals in check” because previous hunters killed all of their natural predators. There are places like Big Bear, CA that had entire species of bear hunted to extinction. The [California Grizzly Bear](http://www.bearconservation.org.uk/california-grizzly-bear-extinct/) was wiped out by 1922. The same bear that’s on our flag. Indigenous people lived in harmony with them for centuries and hunters managed to annihilate them in less than 50 years.


marie7787

Just like with most things when it comes to wildlife and humans. I can not express how much I dislike humanity. They find a way to ruin anything they get their hands on :(


Patchouli_psalter

We are all humanity, but I know what you mean


CantorFunction

>Indigenous people lived in harmony with them for centuries [Might not be totally true](http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nattrans/ntecoindian/essays/pleistocene.htm). Humans will human after all


loquedijoella

I was speaking more in terms of the local Serrano people here in Southern California. They revered grizzlies as elders, and never ate their meat or wore their fur.


CantorFunction

Gee, you learn something new every day. Thanks!!


Antin0de

"I'm the *good guy* for shooting innocent animals dead. I'm providing a valuable public service. The ones who want the violence to stop are the baddies."


Lilmonster27

People will find any lame ass fake news, BS to justify their shit actions and behaviors


Squishy-Cthulhu

There are over 10000 deer breeding farms in the USA that breed animals specifically for hunting. The population argument is bullshit so long as those farms exist.


itsyaboinadia

i read that reintroducing natural predators makes deer more cautious about geometric landmarks like roads, and they stay away. so even there, letting nature do its thing is more effective 🤷‍♂️


k1410407

If going into animal's homes and lighting them up is a hobby I really question your sanity.


Mankayy2250

Ex-hunter here. I absolutely understand, but it really does come down to conditioning. In the same way that we are conditioned to overlook paying for someone else to kill them for us, even if we are aware how awfully animals are treated. Good people can do bad things.


k1410407

Yeah I should get used to that, I have a close vegan friend who hunted as well. I can't relate to it cause I was raised vegetarian but I'm guilty of tolerating carnism.


Tetraplasm

I love this philosophical topic, and I feel like sharing my thoughts on it briefly. I personally don't think "good" people do bad things. I think people are taught (by themselves or others) to justify and compartmentalize their behavior, such that everyone considers the "line in the sand" where evil starts to be just a few inches away from themselves metaphorically. I think that evil is hypocrisy and selfishness. Which are pretty much one in the same—selfishness is taking more than what is needed, at the expense of others who might need some. It is prioritizing the self over others, as if the self is more valuable than the other. This is hypocritical, because if everyone applied this reasoning, we would all compete for resources in a way that would hurt each individual. We don't want to be treated with selfishness, we want to be treated with kindness and mercy. So to act in a way that is selfish is hypocritical, hence it is evil. And this line of reasoning can be applied to any action, in fact it makes a lot of sense when you consider how it relates to animal agriculture. To me, a 'good' person is one who does the least amount of bad possible, all the time. Nobody is perfectly good in this way, but one can actively try to find ways in which they are evil and eliminate them. I think this can be likened to light and dark, but in reverse of what is the "normal" association of these concepts: darkness is the absence of light, just as goodness is the absence of evil. I think a good piece of philosophical literature to read more about this (in easy to understand language, and only a few pages!) Is the Socratic dialogue Euthyphro.


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Mankayy2250

You can hunt/buy meat and still be a “good” person. Barely any of us were born vegan. It’s all conditioning.


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Squishy-Cthulhu

In the UK we have hunt sabs, they sabotage fox hunts.


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govols2015

Two of the people I see the most while out birdwatching are both former hunters. It is a natural transition. Pretty much the same activity right up to the shooting part


Tre_Scrilla

Real men shoot animals with a camera


oneawesomeguy

Print this on a birder shirt and I think it'd sell


vegan4Danimals

Accidentally vegan post?


Severe_Concentrate86

There are people actually arguing about it in the comments of course.. same types of people who believe hunters do more for wildlife than vegans lool.


dragonfruit4

There is a small kernel of truth to that...a lot of state and federal government conservation funding comes from hunting and fishing taxes. That's not to say Redneck Joe tearing up the woods with his monster truck and littering beer cans everywhere is a steward of the earth or anything, it's just a fee he HAS to pay whether he likes it or not. Many hunters vote Republican too and we all know how wonderful their environmental policies are /s. A perverse outcome of this is that many wildlife agencies make decisions that benefit hunters at the expense of actual scientifically-informed conservation. Even though hunters and trappers are a small minority of outdoor recreationists, they have a disproportionate influence on policy because of the ass backwards way we devalue wildlife and the environment as a whole. There's some talk of taxing other outdoor gear (tents, binoculars, backpacks, etc) to generate more conservation funding and give non-hunting recreationists more influence, but unfortunately I don't think it's gained enough steam to become reality


nashio

does it matter if it was?


Sir_Meliodas_92

It's really sad if you can't find a hobby that you enjoy that doesn't involve you killing something. Says a lot about a person...


gaygoldenretriever

You can 'hunt' animals without shooting them. It's called bird watching. And it's really good fun! You don't even have the stray far away from your 'sport', it's basically the same without the murder.


dickbob124

Or animal photography.


big_bean_inc

lol so many """vegans""" defending Hunting, i stopped caring about "conservasionist" hunters when i find out deer farms exist in New Zealand, they only want to murder animals for fun, they perpetuate overpopulation and invasive species so they can have more to shoot at


oneawesomeguy

We do this in the U.S. too. The U.S. Department of Agriculture supervises literally thousands of commercial deer farm operations in the US to maintain a deer population for hunters. In addition, other departments are responsible for breeding programs on government land. Deer overpopulation is very much a recurring human-caused issue and those who say it it natural without human intervention are likely misinformed.


zombie_tomato

I am a legal gun owner in Canada. I have never hunted in my life and I like to use my rifles for target shooting. It's fun. But in reality it's expensive, has a lot of red tape involved, requires special secured storage, and not to mention rigorous training and licensing before being able to even own one. As of this year we will be retiring our rifles and doing other things with our lives. I personally have grown fond of organic gardening and crocheting! My husband has moved on to carpentry. Literally any other hobby. It's just not necessary or economically feasible for us anymore.


oneawesomeguy

I just saw this relevant video on the differences of obtaining guns in the U.S. and Canada: https://youtu.be/q9El7gEvJWU


Fox_1-4

Literal facts


lets_study_lamarck

saw someone on twitter proudly say that "even" girls hunt deer with bows and arrows, you don't really need guns for it...and everyone's ignoring how much worse that is for the deer.


TheFailingHero

I don’t know that it actually is worse for the deer. I’m 90% positive a deer shot by a bow dies faster than a rifle. Either way archery is a fun hobby without shooting living things


NameEqualsEqualsMain

bUt pOpuLaTiOn cOnTroL


Micro1sAverage

“We need to destroy the ecosystem before they destroy the ecosystem”


CMRC23

Fuck hunters, but also under no pretext


badbet

Glad somebody said it


Pengwertle

Yeah same. Protect yourself from wild pigs (talking about feral hogs of course c:), don't shoot random animals with them you twisted sadists


[deleted]

I can’t get how hunting is tied to masculinity. How is a lack of empathy masculine? If I stomp on a baby, is that manly?


a_girl_named_jane

Nah. You gotta stomp on two at the same time, just stomping one is boyish.


GuineaPigBikini

Are hunters really responsible gun owners? They keep shooting kids thinking they're deer


freeradicalx

Responsible gun-owning vegan here... Perfectly happy just shooting targets and enjoying my marksmanship.


a_girl_named_jane

There are two of us! That's one more than I thought!


freeradicalx

There are dozens of us! Dozens!


addjewelry

Yeah, but the noise you make frightens wildlife.


OfficialNT4L

The noise my ass makes after a fat breakfast bean burrito while I'm out camping after a night of drinking also probably frightens wildlife, to be fair.


oneawesomeguy

That is fair


catjuggler

But how will they feel masculine 🙄


putsillynamehereplz

If anything, hunting is the sport of cowards, you kill someone while they are not watching, or from behind, just like a backstabbing bitch.


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Charlieinhisownworld

I do not understand why anyone would want to murder innocent beings once they see that there is no reason for any of that crap. Guns are for one thing, and that is killing. Whether they are humans, deer, or squirrels, there is nothing worth someone murdering them.


Vapelorttrapstar

I’m extremely pro gun so my dad who supports gun control tried to relate to me by sending me a picture of him with the deer he killed🤢 What does my passion for individual liberty have to do with you killing another sentient being? The non aggression principle (the reason I am against gun control) is the philosophical foundation for my veganism and he literally knows that. Carnism is a neurodegenerative disease smh


aponty

they sure do love showing off their selfies with corpses


plaidalert

Muh conservationism tho


GlarthirLover33

Similarly all the cattle ranchers and dairy farmers that are "desperate for our support" can get a different fuckin job


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Feisty-Trouble2279

This is SO good 🤣🤣


adumbswiftie

In all this conversation I also learned today that hunters and fishers are considered to have the most dangerous job in the world and they die far more often than cops. if only people could just eat something else other than animals, the hunters and fishers also wouldn’t have to die.


funkalunatic

Except trapping


bokchoybaby2

My dad was really upset when I said I wouldn't go fishing anymore... I was like you know I can still go out on a canoe/kayak, I'm just gonna bring binoculars instead and do some bird watching lol


GayTrainPressure

The second amendment exists to kill our govt not innocent animals


chrismeds

Fair. But in the U.S, as per laws (interpretations of the constitution), people have the right to have guns. More sane states put more limits, and less sane states put as few limits as possible. Undoing the 2nd amendment is very hard but I suppose could be done with a supermajority in the house and senate + pres (Dems ofc; Repubs don't care at all...).